Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Moving on to new straw men and issues we cannot resolve
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Vietnam
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ryan425



Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 11
Location: Ho Chi Minh City

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I merely expressed an opinion based on my experiences in Vietnam. Surely, in a forum, everyone doesn't have to share the same beliefs. Your attacks were uncalled for but accepted as differences. I disagree with those who disagreed with me. That's okay. That's life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who attacked anyone?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anh Dep



Joined: 16 Mar 2013
Posts: 53
Location: Bangkok Thailand

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Religion,no thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Off the beaten path

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryan425 wrote:
I merely expressed an opinion based on my experiences in Vietnam. Surely, in a forum, everyone doesn't have to share the same beliefs. Your attacks were uncalled for but accepted as differences. I disagree with those who disagreed with me. That's okay. That's life.


Personal experiences and different opinions are always welcome.

Vietnam corrupts foreigners who are corruptible and not those who answer to a higher power

Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am posting here about the discussion on the VTBOX thread, which has totally moved away from that employer. The discussion is pretty interesting and important, about staying here, leaving, the costs, the choices. I have always felt this is not a good place to come to for financial reasons. However, it surely depends on your particulars. For economic refugees who can get 15 bucks an hour or even less, it may be a great choice. I think one has to compare it to what he would face back home. For those of us with assets and incomes from the west, it is another equation, as those monies are worth a lot more here than there. If we rent out our house back there (assuming we have one or more), we can pay less for rent here, the income is worth more here and the whole thing can work quite well. If we have nothing there, or debts there, then the equation shifts.

If you are already here and going back, having to set up shop once again, then that is a different consideration also, and so much depends on what kind of work you can get over there. Older guys in the west may have such limited opportunities there that the jobs available here may be quite good (by comparison). If you look good and sound good, you may find your ability to get hired is much higher over here. I read that for most of us, the time we worked here is discounted as pretty worthless to employers there, and some may also find it to imply something sleazy about us. I think there can be some truth to that generalization, probably moreso for some other countries like Thailand or Cambodia, but the average employer is probably not that tuned in and just paints us all with the same brush.

Not much helpful info we can give folks who are already here, they see the reality of it and if they are here it is too late to do much about it. If you are really good at this, you do not need advice, if you are not, then you see what your situation is, and now you have to make the best of it. Maybe the best advice would be to lay off the hooch, if you have that issue, it certainly could not hurt to try.

For folks considering coming over, I do not see much of a change in what I believe to be the best advice. Do not plan on this as a job if you have never been here, come as a tourist and live here a month or so before you make your decision. Do not come if you have to have the money, unless you are from a very difficult situation and you are prepared to live like the natives without aircon, eating cheap food, sleeping on hard floors in cramped dirty unsafe quarters. If you live like that now and can accept it as your lot in life, then you will probably be okay (assuming you can get the work and do the work).

I am a pretty frugal guy, never lived to high standards back in the states, so this was not too difficult for me. Still, I would not feel comfortable suggesting to any westerner to come over for this work unless he had a permanent guaranteed income from the west. You could survive on a grand per month (not working, working costs money so if you work, a grand is not much), but even that is not giving you an exciting life, it is just keeping you fed and clean and alive. In reality, most of the guys who come over on a pension blow thru it pretty easily. If you are smart, you are okay. In Thailand they are not being smart with it, which is where more of the pensioners go.

I do think that for folks who do this right, they should be so good at it and so ready for it that it is clear that this is the best choice for several reasons, and in those cases, the financial aspect works to your advantage. The western money is worth a lot more here than there, so if you have that working for you, it can really work well. I think folks who are the right profile for this do not have the need or the worry about what happens if they go back, as they are probably worse off financially there, but can survive in either world, with or without work. It is really best to not need these jobs, you can dabble, get good at what you find to be your niche, and turn down substandard employers. If our guys could bring higher expectations to the table, it would be to all our advantage. I don't see that happening though, too many people who are desperate for work, and the employers are not that discriminating on who they hire.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ajc19810



Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 214

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great to see this discussion move over to this thread.

MIS. I struggled for a long time about how I could justify my time in Vietnam, its a really large black hole in my resume and still is as i continue to return.

Even though I originally came here with my university for a 6 month practical placement, employers always wonder why i stayed on for so long and why i continue to return (this itself comes with peoples preconceived notions of SE Asia, which most definitely works against you).

What i have done to help that point while in Vietnam is work ESL and also do some charity work part time. I am a qualified social worker so that has helped my career or at least not made it look so patchy, and employers find it quite interesting. Not to mention its the right thing to do if you have the time.

I also have to do contract work in Australia, which is a way of justifying short periods of employment and also gives me the freedom to move around.

Sgt, I am taking it that you are an Aussie and MIS is an American which gives us two very different and interesting perspectives. My understanding is that work in the States is still very hard to find, while work in Australia is there if you want it, albeit not necessarily in your desired field.

A silver lining for us Australians is that airfares are still relatively cheap so that helps with relocation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kurtz



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 408
Location: Off the beaten path

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've got around three main options as a TELELer.

Be semi-retired and not need the money.
Do a short stint of a year or two when you're young and return home.
Be a professional and only take the best jobs with good pay and conditions.

Most peeps hang around the low paying mill scene and just waste their lives living a second rate life abroad. Nothing to show for themselves, visiting home blows away their year's savings and they live with regret later on.

Me, I am aiming high these days, culture comes a distant second to money. I am mostly in it for the money and money can be made in EFL, but most people aim low or never upgrade their quals.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree that decent work in the U.S. is hard to find. Lots of folks there were making fairly decent pay before the financial crisis, now they are not doing so well. Not true for all, of course, but generally, it has been a tough 6 or 7 years on the job scene. Costs are not going down either. These factors were important to my decision to move, and I am a lot better off here than I was there. A friend of mine who worked at the same big place that I did (which shut down a lot of their U.S. operations in the crisis, putting us out of work) has not found anything at all those 7 years. He is an intelligent, hard working man, ex military. He finally got a job at Taco Bell and was laid off before he got his uniform! But the U.S. is so diverse, your story really depends on your location, as well as what kind of work you can do.

If I was going back, I feel pretty strongly that I would go straight into retirement (or at least from the formal employment sector, might do some independent work). I have a vacation home I could hide out in, low costs, nice area, could play around with my interests from there. My other location is high costs, trendy city U.S.A., youth is worshiped there, might be able to get the uniform at Taco Bell in that environment, maybe not. Over here, seems like my youth is extended in terms of employability, as well as some other key aspects of life.

I know an Aussie who did time here, he never had much trouble finding work back in Oz. He was a real teacher there, though teaching was not really his favorite line, he was always able to get work. But he makes a lot more doing trade work in the western part of Oz where they do all that mining. No social life there he says. He enjoyed his time here, but was getting nowhere financially in his life and that was making him nervous, as he is in his 50's. He taught here just a bit, he could get work, but he knew he was never going to pad a retirement much from his life here.

One very significant consideration is pensions/social security. For Americans, we can live abroad and get the deposit with no issue. For Aussies, I am not so sure. My Aussie friend said they could not, but I have had others say you can. It may depend on some technical particulars. Certainly needs to be well researched, if you cannot get your pension from Oz living here it would be a big financial hit. Younger guys are probably not thinking of all that yet.

Final note on Oz, the info I have is that folks taking an Asian wife back home are in particular danger of losing a lot of their assets if/when she splits. The girls know enough about the rules to know that Oz is the best place for them to target for that reason, also a few other related reasons, such as finding what they really want after they get over there. Guys from there should really research this issue in detail, I just know a little about it, but my understanding is that it is a very common situation to get taken to the cleaners on this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
1st Sgt Welsh



Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 564
Location: Salalah, Oman

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:

I know an Aussie who did time here, he never had much trouble finding work back in Oz. He was a real teacher there, though teaching was not really his favorite line, he was always able to get work. But he makes a lot more doing trade work in the western part of Oz where they do all that mining. No social life there he says. He enjoyed his time here, but was getting nowhere financially in his life and that was making him nervous, as he is in his 50's. He taught here just a bit, he could get work, but he knew he was never going to pad a retirement much from his life here.


Yep, it's not as good as it used to be, but you can still earn very good money working in the mines in Australia, especially if you have a registered trade. However, you have to be prepared to live in a wasteland, both geographically and culturally. Indeed, if the mining companies didn't offer 'stupid money' then no one in Australia would do it. It's not that different in TEFL. I know teachers, who are not particularly well-qualified, who have been able to make and save very good money in Saudi Arabia, but, once again, they had to live there. I'll never say never, but I'd have to be offered very good conditions before I'd consider relocating to Saudi.

mark_in_saigon wrote:

Final note on Oz, the info I have is that folks taking an Asian wife back home are in particular danger of losing a lot of their assets if/when she splits. The girls know enough about the rules to know that Oz is the best place for them to target for that reason, also a few other related reasons, such as finding what they really want after they get over there. Guys from there should really research this issue in detail, I just know a little about it, but my understanding is that it is a very common situation to get taken to the cleaners on this.


You could say the same about marrying a Thai, Indonesian, Russian etc. Besides, you don't have to marry someone born outside of Australia in order to be wrung dry in a divorce proceeding. Geez, you don't even need to be married, as, in Oz, 'common law marriages' are legally treated the same as traditional marriages. In fairness I should say that the courts in Australia do take into account how much each party contributed when determining the divorce settlement. If your wife divorces you and you have kids though, well, financially speaking, you are usually in for a very tough time indeed. I'm not so much commenting on whether that's fair or not, I'm just stating the way it is as I see it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mark_in_saigon



Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, my point is that Australia is PARTICULARLY rewarding to the woman in a divorce (according to my Australian friends), but yeah, it does not matter where the woman is from, for sure. Asians know about this, and some of them target Australians as potential husbands for that reason. I think the Filipinos are the group who take advantage of this the most, correct me if I am wrong.

Of course, this goes on with women from poor countries marrying men from rich countries generally as well. I am just saying the Australian men need to be extra aware of this.

American men have a similar problem in that we have such an established VN community in California, so the girls all know someone that can help them if they decide to bust out of the marriage once they have done their time to become permanent. No big secret, but it is amazing how many of these marriages end up that way.

Anyway, what was the main topic here again? Pay, and how it all works out, right? I am in suspense on what happens next. I think VN is doing a bit better, but I think China could be doing worse, of course, everything is so hidden here, it is very hard to tell.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 388

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
If you are already here and going back, having to set up shop once again, then that is a different consideration also, and so much depends on what kind of work you can get over there. Older guys in the west may have such limited opportunities there that the jobs available here may be quite good (by comparison). If you look good and sound good, you may find your ability to get hired is much higher over here. I read that for most of us, the time we worked here is discounted as pretty worthless to employers there, and some may also find it to imply something sleazy about us. I think there can be some truth to that generalization, probably moreso for some other countries like Thailand or Cambodia, but the average employer is probably not that tuned in and just paints us all with the same brush.

My own family are bad enough with this. The number of times I've been asked how Thailand is is ridiculous.

Just on this point of going home, I'd wonder how important having a recognisable employer on your CV is once you leave teaching. Having 3 years experience at an obscure language school that no-one outside of Vietnam has heard of (even within the industry) might not do you many favours. Whereas I suspect having something like the British Council on your CV would give your experience a bit more legitimacy, purely on the grounds that everyone's heard of it.

I'd also be interested to know if anyone who teaches corporate classes through a language school would mention any of these companies on your CV. Again, this is probably something that would look more impressive if you ever quit teaching. Saying you taught English for ABC Language School isn't going to mean much to employers back home. Saying that this involved teaching corporate classes at Sony or Unilever might carry more weight.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ExpatLuke



Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 424

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With Stupid wrote:

I'd also be interested to know if anyone who teaches corporate classes through a language school would mention any of these companies on your CV. Again, this is probably something that would look more impressive if you ever quit teaching. Saying you taught English for ABC Language School isn't going to mean much to employers back home. Saying that this involved teaching corporate classes at Sony or Unilever might carry more weight.


I'm pretty sure anyone who's smart enough is going to list the corporations. It's just good resume writing there. Throw in some EFL power-words like "passionate", "professional", and "flexible" and you're golden. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VietCanada



Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark_in_saigon wrote:
I am posting here about the discussion on the VTBOX thread, which has totally moved away from that employer. The discussion is pretty interesting and important, about staying here, leaving, the costs, the choices. I have always felt this is not a good place to come to for financial reasons. However, it surely depends on your particulars. For economic refugees who can get 15 bucks an hour or even less, it may be a great choice. I think one has to compare it to what he would face back home. For those of us with assets and incomes from the west, it is another equation, as those monies are worth a lot more here than there. If we rent out our house back there (assuming we have one or more), we can pay less for rent here, the income is worth more here and the whole thing can work quite well. If we have nothing there, or debts there, then the equation shifts.

If you are already here and going back, having to set up shop once again, then that is a different consideration also, and so much depends on what kind of work you can get over there. Older guys in the west may have such limited opportunities there that the jobs available here may be quite good (by comparison). If you look good and sound good, you may find your ability to get hired is much higher over here. I read that for most of us, the time we worked here is discounted as pretty worthless to employers there, and some may also find it to imply something sleazy about us. I think there can be some truth to that generalization, probably moreso for some other countries like Thailand or Cambodia, but the average employer is probably not that tuned in and just paints us all with the same brush.

Not much helpful info we can give folks who are already here, they see the reality of it and if they are here it is too late to do much about it. If you are really good at this, you do not need advice, if you are not, then you see what your situation is, and now you have to make the best of it. Maybe the best advice would be to lay off the hooch, if you have that issue, it certainly could not hurt to try.

For folks considering coming over, I do not see much of a change in what I believe to be the best advice. Do not plan on this as a job if you have never been here, come as a tourist and live here a month or so before you make your decision. Do not come if you have to have the money, unless you are from a very difficult situation and you are prepared to live like the natives without aircon, eating cheap food, sleeping on hard floors in cramped dirty unsafe quarters. If you live like that now and can accept it as your lot in life, then you will probably be okay (assuming you can get the work and do the work).

I am a pretty frugal guy, never lived to high standards back in the states, so this was not too difficult for me. Still, I would not feel comfortable suggesting to any westerner to come over for this work unless he had a permanent guaranteed income from the west. You could survive on a grand per month (not working, working costs money so if you work, a grand is not much), but even that is not giving you an exciting life, it is just keeping you fed and clean and alive. In reality, most of the guys who come over on a pension blow thru it pretty easily. If you are smart, you are okay. In Thailand they are not being smart with it, which is where more of the pensioners go.

I do think that for folks who do this right, they should be so good at it and so ready for it that it is clear that this is the best choice for several reasons, and in those cases, the financial aspect works to your advantage. The western money is worth a lot more here than there, so if you have that working for you, it can really work well. I think folks who are the right profile for this do not have the need or the worry about what happens if they go back, as they are probably worse off financially there, but can survive in either world, with or without work. It is really best to not need these jobs, you can dabble, get good at what you find to be your niche, and turn down substandard employers. If our guys could bring higher expectations to the table, it would be to all our advantage. I don't see that happening though, too many people who are desperate for work, and the employers are not that discriminating on who they hire.


Well thought out post. Good points.

I would add that there are transferable skills between teaching and sales. If one is older (or not) and wants to go back home then it might be an idea to research and network sales. Use Linkedin for example to connect with sales opportunities.

Also consider that you can go anywhere when you return. Some places like Calgary in Canada have a real shortage of workers in non-oil industry positions (like sales for example). Hence work is easier to find regardless of age or circumstance. Having been there I can tell you that if you can work in construction you can go to temporary work offices and begin working on day one, paid cash weekly. Mostly cleaning up and other low level work. It's also easier to find temporary accommodation there since they tend to get people dropping in from other regions of the country. Forget Toronto, Vancouver and other popular destinations. No work, no money. No different than here really except basic necessities cost much more as a proportion of pay.

Use the net, research, reach out and network. Perhaps there are similar situations in the US and other countries?

I should also add that there are free (1 time only) programs available to help you identify your skill set, match it to an possible job, prepare appropriate resumes, practice interview skills and learn job search skills. These are available in most Canadian cities of any size.

I would do this before going into EFL unless of course you love teaching in a foreign country. Like me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VietCanada



Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are other issues working here besides finding work and good pay.

I moved recently because my landlord decided to let her daughter and her friends live in my house for the summer. After four years there I was given 4 days to move and the additional thrill of worrying about getting my deposit back.

I found a new place. After successfully getting three visa's the fourth was held up. The local militia, police, government officials whatever wanted 1.5 million. My wife refused. My current landlord told us we had to leave a short time later. We got a month this time but we discovered that we cannot live in our current ward any more. We were evicted from the neighbourhood LOL.

Then there was the time that a local money lender threatened my wife. Her and her friends threatened to kill her, burn our house at night and or beat her while yelling at her that she was a dog whenever she went outside. All over the neighbourhood. Not when I was around however. She was expected to keep this 'in the family'. When I found out I went after the person responsible. Everyone thought the money lender was crazy. I demonstrated real crazy for them. No violence just the threat of same. The local militia, government officials etc. whatever came. Everyone was worried for us as the death threats ramped up that night.

The local militia, government officials etc. whatever kicked the money lender out of our district (not ward). They cared about the reputation of VN amongst foreigners. Our landlord had a good relationship with the money lender. Not borrowing- she owns almost two dozen properties and has a house the size of a small apartment building. But she evicted us a couple months later so her daughter and her friends could hang out together for the summer.

My point is that living here is quite possibly more complicated than working here. Something else people considering moving here for work need to seriously consider.

This is most seriously not a 'just come on down' kind of place like the land of kimchi. Can't speak for China or Taiwan.

LMFAO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
half moon



Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With Stupid wrote:
Just on this point of going home, I'd wonder how important having a recognisable employer on your CV is once you leave teaching. Having 3 years experience at an obscure language school that no-one outside of Vietnam has heard of (even within the industry) might not do you many favours. Whereas I suspect having something like the British Council on your CV would give your experience a bit more legitimacy, purely on the grounds that everyone's heard of it.


Get very detailed, professional, and specific letters that detail every single thing you have done at a school in bullet points, plus an intro and conclusion. Print it out on a company letter head. Scan it to USB and save it elsewhere. Also get at least 5 copies on good quality paper.

These 'letters' obviously needs your DOS / manager's name, sig, and contact info, and the full address, phone and website from the school.

It is often the case that you did not just "teach English as a Foreign Language," but did many additional things.

When (and if) employers do a reference check they often want to call your reference on the telephone to have your reference answer specific questions spontaneously.

Quote:
I'd also be interested to know if anyone who teaches corporate classes through a language school would mention any of these companies on your CV.


Absolutely. Why would you not?

Also, note that the "contract was successfully completed."

Quote:
Again, this is probably something that would look more impressive if you ever quit teaching. Saying you taught English for ABC Language School isn't going to mean much to employers back home. Saying that this involved teaching corporate classes at Sony or Unilever might carry more weight.


Think about the things that you have done at any school: at least 10 different things you've done.

As for teaching when returning to the West, if I ever thought I would have to teach in a US public school, I'd rather return to Asia and die here.

I have no interest in teaching in the US, and I believe the vast majority of EFL teachers I've met feel the same.

*Another thing I advise everyone to do is hire a professional CV/resume company. It will cost you from $150 to $250 and will be worth a dollar you spend.

Start this process at least 3-4 months before you return to the West.

It's all done via email attachments.

These service will get you the interviews. The rest of that is up to you.

I can only speak for the US, but the way you just apply for a job has changed dramatically over the last 4-5 years.

*Start a LinkedIn Account (if you don't have one).

Use EFL, but expand it into other industries/fields that you're interested in.

Join groups in the city/region you are returning to.
Slowly but steadily offer to "connect" with people in these industries and companies. Once you get a few of them, the rest will always accept you.

If necessary, hire a service to brush up your LinkedIn account.

There is still a lot of unemployment and underemployment and many people competing for one position.

Visit interview websites. Many are very good.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Vietnam All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC