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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wojbrian wrote:
It's all a bunch of crap!


Why? Does your country allow me as a EU citizen to work freely there, or even to have the opportunity of running a one-man business? Nope. Why should it be easier for you if it's not easy for us?

Quote:
The paperwork issue is probably the main reason I'm not there now.

Even when they can say yes they say no.


The paperwork issue is a piece of cake provided you comply with the system. You chose to work for dubious employers who didn't provide the documentation expected - and that's not the fault of Poland.

Quote:
I think this goes back to the old system. No one wants to take responsibility, if you say no then you can't get in trouble.


It has nothing to do with the old system and everything to do with the fact that Poland doesn't really need non-EU immigrants.

Quote:
The US embassy will not do anything. I called once and they said they do not have any control of what goes on within another countries borders!


But they certainly might be able to advise as to whether something has changed in regards to self-employed people obtaining residency. It certainly seems that they've decided that freelance teachers are no longer eligible for residence permits.

dragonpiwo wrote:
The money I've got I earned. Poland is by far the most horrendous place I've ever lived for paperwork and meaningless, countless, hoop-jumping, exercises based on nationality, whether it's the banking or the endless 'getting your life sorted' stuff. I've lived in 9 countries.


Clearly never lived in France, Germany, Sweden or any other notoriously bureaucratic countries, then. I hardly think that living in a country where everything is provided to you qualifies, for that matter.

I've found that almost every situation in Poland can be resolved with common sense. Someone wants something absurd from you? No problem, instead of fighting with them because you think it's stupid, just go along with it. Works fine, and you can often benefit from some...unofficial allowances from bureaucrats too.

dragonpiwo wrote:
Meanwhile I'm getting yet another zamelodowania just to get a visa credit card. Despite having a long banking history, several hundred thousand Zl in my current account and a lokata and savings account..oh and a GBP account. I've given up on the mortgage as it turns out the missus can get it easily despite earning a fraction of my salary.


And yet I managed to get a mortgage from the first bank I applied to, with the whole deal being done in three weeks from the offer being accepted to the signing of the contract with the notary. What can I say? And that was on the basis of having accounts from a single year of being self employed.

The bank probably took one look at your uncertain arrangements and knew better than to lend to you. Having several hundred thousand in the bank is pretty meaningless - Poland avoided getting into a mess for the exact reason that the finance industry knew better than to lend to the likes of you. Certainly I'd be very wary as a lender to lend to someone who has no proof that his tax-residency status is what it is. A big tax bill could easily eat up most of those savings overnight, too.

(just for kicks, the highest tax rate is 32% here. Fines are normally 100% on undeclared income, so that gives a tax rate of 64%. With no decision from the tax office to confirm your tax status, from the eyes of the bank, you're a risk - especially as your work could dry up easily in the event of civil war breaking out in Libya. And you're honestly surprised that they won't lend?)

ecocks, my suggestion would be to get someone legally trained to write a letter to them asking them for the legal basis in which they denied your application for residency. That would be a good start - you can then examine the law in question and find out if they had any justification to refuse you.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 463
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:18 am    Post subject: there you go again Reply with quote

I've rung the tax office Delph and my tax status is rock solidly confirmed. I also pay tax elsewhere and can get company letters to prove it, some of which have been given to the bank. It's got sweet fa to do with risk. I have a full-time job like my Polish missus, but who got her credit card in 1 day. My banking history with WBK was about 15 years I recall. How long have you been in Poland? Currently with DB and Millenium. Millenium have been insisting on the old photo ID karta, which isn't issued anymore. Poles who earn in the UK in GBP and work as subbies can easily get PLN mortgages despite not paying tax in Poland and having very uncertain sub-contracting building jobs. It's about race and Polish attitudes to foreigners. Their gut instinct is to say 'nie'. I just let the missus do all the talking these days. Maybe you got lucky. My pal X, who inherited a fortune cannot get a visa credit card either and he's lived here donkey's years. What's his risk as a GBP millionaire? The missus will do it and I'll pay it. Job done.

We're getting married in a few months. That's a new world of paperwork pain. Zameldowanias with updated addresses (do Poles need such stuff in the UK?), kartas that might need renewing, dumb rules about it's ok to do it on a Friday in June but not in May...it's just endless. Like the banking they insist on taking their time to do things and make decisions by which time original documents are approaching their expiry conditions.


And Delph, I have lived in other countries in western Europe.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you honestly telling me that the tax office will give binding legal advice through a phone call? Anyone with any knowledge of Poland knows that you're only in the clear if you have a signed and stamped decision from the tax office - and even then, it only applies to the tax office where you are resident. I don't know anyone with any common sense that would rely on a phone call here - not least because there's absolutely no trace of anyone saying such.

Paying tax elsewhere is meaningless to the bank, as quite frankly, I wouldn't trust a letter from Libya to mean anything at all. The standards of public administration there aren't exactly what they are in Europe, are they?

You have problems with getting credit cards and so on here for one simple reason - your situation is simply abnormal by any standards. Polish banks are very risk adverse due to the regulatory climate - and so it should be. Poles can't easily get mortgages here - where did you get that impression? The market has opened up slightly, but the latest round of regulations is more or less keeping a lid on demand.

The Polish attitude towards EU citizens is perfectly fine. They say 'nie' when presented with someone who may possibly have evaded a considerable amount of taxation, who has a considerable amount of cash in the bank from a dubious source and so on. The fact that the UK was/is lending cash to all sorts of dubious characters is exactly why Poland avoided a banking crisis and the UK didn't.

I don't think I "got lucky" with anything. I merely complied with what they wanted and did my homework so I didn't waste my time. Like most of Poland, do things the way they want it and you'll be perfectly fine.

As for credit cards, there's a simple rule for them. They won't issue them to people who don't have a clear work history here. Again, much less problems with personal debt here - for the simple reason that the banks don't go handing out credit like sweets. If, like me, you work under a normal umowa o prace and have a job that they understand, then you don't have problems.

As for getting married, again, I had no problems here. But then again, I took the time to ask the USC directly exactly what they wanted and gave them copies of absolutely everything that might have been interesting to them, even down to a copy of my work contract here. Most of it was irrelevant, but it's very hard for a civil servant to cause trouble when they have multiple copies of anything that they might need.

It's a matter of mentality. Then again, I guess if you have to rely on the missus for everything, I can see why you struggle.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 463
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

A major international oil company with docs issued by the London office...yeah right.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 780
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reluctantly, VERY reluctantly, I am getting a lawyer into this.

Simply, the situation is not workable for the long-term and erodes the quality of life drastically.

Will post what I hear from the lawyers I talk to and what course of action is taken plus the results.

Disheartening.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
A major international oil company with docs issued by the London office...yeah right.


Which presumably clearly show you working in Libya.

Who would lend to you?
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wojbrian



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote] Does your country allow me as a EU citizen to work freely there
Quote:
Probably not! The USA is overly restrictive.

The paperwork issue is a piece of cake provided you comply with the system.
Quote:
Complying has nothing to do with it. My ex room mate had to go through hoops every year. They know exactly who he is. He has worked and lived in the same place for 5 years. Yet every year they ask for everything all over again. Once he has submitted everything they end up asking for more.

It certainly seems that they've decided that freelance teachers are no longer eligible for residence permits.
Quote:
It seems this way.
Another friend was denied his long term residency. He was granted one before but this them he wasn't.

for what it's worth, that's a shoddy statement.
Quote:
Smile

It made sense when I made it but it was wrong!

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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 463
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:49 am    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

The visa stuff seems a real hassle for the North Americans. I was wondering how easy it is for Poles to work in the States. Maybe that has a lot to do with it.

And wojbrian's right. They know exactly who people are after a while. The visa situation is really no different to the credit one in some respects.My pal, who's an accountant and tax expert was round my place the other night. He's been here 17 years, earns all his dosh in Poland, has a Polish wife and 2 kids and owns several properties outright with no debt and he can't get a Visa credit card either. Some risk he is hey? It's common practice to get a mortgage in say Spain when you live in the UK. A Kuwaiti bank would have lent me the money in 2012 to buy in Poland. It's just Poland. Passport, zameldowania, karta, salary slips and full-time contract plus a hefty deposit don't seem to do the trick here, so the missus will have to do it. Delph talks about people not giving the right papers, well that's just BS as I have nothing left to give them. For the wedding they've got everything it's just that my impending CNI is sent on a certain date and depending on the 'parish' is valid for 3 or 6 months. There's just no uniformity in anything when it comes to paperwork. It's a Polish economy as the Germans might say.
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 985

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
I was wondering how easy it is for Poles to work in the States.



Well, my wife is Polish. She works in the states. I'll tell you.

The first two years here, she had temporary residency. After those two years are up, you apply for permanent residency, which she did. She was granted 10 years permanent residency which requires nothing more than renewal every 10 years. She's already been here 3 years which means we could have applied for her citizenship a couple months ago but we've quite honestly been pretty busy and there's no rush. The only thing she can't do here is vote and become POTUS, and after citizenship, just POTUS.

My wife required next to nothing to come here and live and work. Just the paperwork to gain legal residency which we handled entirely in Poland. Only thing we had to do when we got here is get her a social security number for tax purposes which was an hour in the nearest social security office.

Sure, when we first landed the credit card, new cars, etc. had to be in my name because my wife had zero established credit in the USA but now, none of that would be a problem.
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Master Shake



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 859
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dynow wrote:


Well, my wife is Polish. She works in the states. I'll tell you.

The first two years here, she had temporary residency. After those two years are up, you apply for permanent residency, which she did. She was granted 10 years permanent residency which requires nothing more than renewal every 10 years. She's already been here 3 years which means we could have applied for her citizenship a couple months ago but we've quite honestly been pretty busy and there's no rush. The only thing she can't do here is vote and become POTUS, and after citizenship, just POTUS.

My wife required next to nothing to come here and live and work. Just the paperwork to gain legal residency which we handled entirely in Poland. Only thing we had to do when we got here is get her a social security number for tax purposes which was an hour in the nearest social security office.

Sure, when we first landed the credit card, new cars, etc. had to be in my name because my wife had zero established credit in the USA but now, none of that would be a problem.
That sounds like a walk in the park compared to getting residency in PL. I'm on my 4th karta pobytu (residency permit) and even that is only for 2 years. The length of stay is tied to the length of the work permit you have

Even all the incompetence, paperwork and bureaucracy aside, what's truly laughable about Poland's residency system for me is that it demands entrepreneur teachers get work permits.

It's like demanding a person who is starting up a fast food restaurant to go and work at McDonald's.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
The visa situation is really no different to the credit one in some respects.My pal, who's an accountant and tax expert was round my place the other night. He's been here 17 years, earns all his dosh in Poland, has a Polish wife and 2 kids and owns several properties outright with no debt and he can't get a Visa credit card either.


And yet I, a mere permanent employee of a company involved with education, got a credit card without even trying. IKEA had a 0% interest offer a while ago and I used it to buy some stuff (hey, can't argue with 0% interest offers). Part of the condition was getting an IKEA-branded credit card, so I did. No problem, no bother and so on.

Then again, maybe I choose to conduct my affairs in a way that the Poles can understand.

Quote:
Some risk he is hey? It's common practice to get a mortgage in say Spain when you live in the UK. A Kuwaiti bank would have lent me the money in 2012 to buy in Poland.


Which is why Poland spent nothing bailing out banks and yet the UK spent a huge amount. Seems logical to me.

Quote:
It's just Poland. Passport, zameldowania, karta, salary slips and full-time contract plus a hefty deposit don't seem to do the trick here, so the missus will have to do it.


The thing is that you can't get anything done because - as I keep saying - your affairs aren't straight. Most people with half a brain would be suspicious of exactly what you're doing in Libya, after all. Saying you're an English teacher while earning far more than most in Poland seems suspicious, doesn't it?

Quote:
Delph talks about people not giving the right papers, well that's just BS as I have nothing left to give them. For the wedding they've got everything it's just that my impending CNI is sent on a certain date and depending on the 'parish' is valid for 3 or 6 months. There's just no uniformity in anything when it comes to paperwork. It's a Polish economy as the Germans might say.


The CNI is valid for 3 months. The parish is neither here nor there, as you still have to go and deliver it to the USC in person.

Poland is a country where someone with the right mentality can get things done. Fortunately, here, they're not impressed by wads of cash - they want more tangible proof for things, and this is why the country doesn't have identity theft problems nor problems with bank solvency.

At the end of the day, your document trail shows you to be earning a considerable amount of money that isn't subject to taxation in Poland, yet you declared your residency here.

In regards to residency - this is pretty much the same system in the whole EU. I believe though - that the work permit/residency permit system has been changed and that in the future, a valid residency permit will also be a valid work permit.

What dynow doesn't mention is that his wife was doing this as a wife of an American citizen - someone married here to an EU citizen can also work quite freely. Work permits aren't required for family members, and permanent residency doesn't require any proof of work history.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 463
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

Delph-I was in the British embassy last week talking to Elzbieta. she's the person who told me and my fiancée to my face, some are valid for 3 months and some for 6, the CNIs that is. She said it in perfect English and repeated it to my fiancée in Polish. So either she's wrong and it's her job to advise people or you're wrong.

And what's dodgy about a paper trail that involves a full-time company contract, pay slips, letters that indicate I'm paying tax somewhere, a lengthy banking history and good funds???? What exactly is dodgy about that?

You go on and on about Polish banks but some like WBK are owned by Spanish banks. Others like Millenium are Portuguese. The UK banks got knackered by the US sub-prime fiasco. Their liquidity was nobbled by their exposure to banks not people. The credit crunch then buggered business and people lost their jobs. This whole quantitative easing thing going on is to give banks liquidity. In the UK, the tax payer is footing the bill for the banks' greed.
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Richfilth



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 223
Location: Warszawa

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
You go on and on about Polish banks but some like WBK are owned by Spanish banks. Others like Millenium are Portuguese.


Every bank except two (PKO and Getin) are foreign-owned, but KNF regulations prevent any capital transfer from Polish banking entities to their parent companies overseas; essentially, the fact that BNP is American, or that Millenium is Portugese, has no bearing whatsover on their financial stability or risk exposure.

But all this is besides the point. This is yet another thread that started off as something practical that has devoled into the state of sharter's financial situation.
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wojbrian



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And yet I, a mere permanent employee of a company involved with education, got a credit card without even trying. IKEA had a 0% interest offer a while ago and I used it to buy some stuff (hey, can't argue with 0% interest offers). Part of the condition was getting an IKEA-branded credit card, so I did. No problem, no bother and so on.


I am sure you did, however, this is probably not the case for most people.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wojbrian wrote:
Quote:
And yet I, a mere permanent employee of a company involved with education, got a credit card without even trying. IKEA had a 0% interest offer a while ago and I used it to buy some stuff (hey, can't argue with 0% interest offers). Part of the condition was getting an IKEA-branded credit card, so I did. No problem, no bother and so on.


I am sure you did, however, this is probably not the case for most people.


What you need to understand is that I did it as a permanent employee of a business operating openly and legally in Poland. I have obvious signs of living here - a mobile phone contract, ownership of property, a PESEL and all the other stuff that Poles have.

This is the crucial difference. Poland isn't very kind towards those that don't integrate - and I think rightfully so. I don't think I'd be very happy with the bank lending my savings to some random guy who works in a sandpit.
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