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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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 Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: |
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I am not so sure movements in the EFL field from teacher to HR is that much of a step up. The reality is, most of the foreign people in HR are teachers who have maybe two years up the sleeve, no longer want to teach, and fancy an easy paper pushing, Skype interviewing "career" in recruitment when the reality is, they don't have the skills or training of a real HR person.
Can one seriously go home and work in HR given those circumstances?
Real employers in the West want real quals, not an arts degree and HR manager for ILA in Vietnam as a resume. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the reply and interesting links half moon. I guess you learn something everyday. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Food: Our experiences clearly differ and most Vietnamese I have spoken to seem quite proud of their cuisine. |
A lot of the food is quite good (in terms of taste), and for the cost is often a tremendous bargain compared to the west. The problem is the safety. The obvious sanitation issues are clear for everyone to see. Meat hanging at room temperature hour after hour. I used to live by a place that sold dog and you would see the same head from one day to the next til they sold him all off. Obviously their sanitation standards are very low as well. I do OCCASIONALLY see people using plastic gloves, which is a hopeful improvement. Interestingly, flies are not nearly as prevalent as one would expect on this unprotected meat. I do wonder why. Sometimes I wonder if the air kills the insects, as one does not see nearly as many as you would expect with all the rain and the trash and the uncovered, unrefrigerated meat everywhere.
The bigger issue is that they do not know or care what is in the food they are selling. The natives know it and talk about it all the time. They are especially concerned with food from China. They often discuss how the Chinese have a process for removing the taint from old meat so they can then sell it.
Anyone who looks closely at this environment has to wonder how much of all this trash and poison is getting into the food chain. Look at the streets. Think of the flood tides, how that "water" gets into the streets. Ever see that blackish frothy "water"? So then, tides go down, streets still have the residue. Chickens eat off the streets. We eat the chickens. Right?
Food is one of my areas of expertise (professionally, not from eating it, we are all experts in that way), and in my opinion, we are likely eating things that really should not be put inside our bodies. Of course, I am sure we do all over the world, but over here, the amounts of chemicals, foriegn substances and god only knows what are likely much higher.
Ask your VN friends what they think. Mine think it is a real problem. But yeah, it does not kill you in one immediate stroke, and you likely will never know what specifically caused your problem. And, we could bypass it and die of natural causes or motorbike accidents or whatever, who knows what will get you? |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi Mark,
To be honest, the conversations that I have had with Vietnamese people in regards to the cuisine was mainly in regards to the taste. You state that food is one of the areas of your professional expertise, then, OK. I certainly can't make that claim.
In regards to the markets, well, I don't shop there and I have no intention of starting. I buy my food from supermarkets and good restaurants (where the restaurants I go to in order to purchase their produce is, however, another question). By the way, generally speaking, I suspect the markets look worse than they are and the vast majority of the meat and seafood is sold fairly quickly. If it is spoiled and you eat it then you will get sick. If a stall sells spoiled food then they won't stay in business long. Word gets around. Like I said, I have only been sick once here. In Australia, where they have very strict regulations, I've been sick twice.
You mentioned that the food here, in time, will probably kill us [if a motorbike accident doesn't get us first], but I don't really see it that way. Indeed, if I honestly thought that TEFLing in Vietnam was going to take substantial years off my life, then, honestly, I wouldn't live here. I don't want to be personal [and feel free not to answer] but why do you stay if you believe it is going to drive you to an early grave?
Like I already noted, the average life expectancy here is 75 and that is with the vast majority of the population only having access to abysmal medical care. Moreover, most Vietnamese can't afford to eat and shop in the better places that expats can. Lets also note that the Vietnamese drive in the same traffic, breath the same air etc. True, most expats live in urban areas, but I'd be betting that urban Vietnamese live longer than rural ones do anyway. It wasn't that long ago that most of the developed world had similar life expectancies and, if things were as bad as you allude to, then, I'm sorry, but I'd be expecting people here to be dropping like flies. |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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I don't recall saying the food would probably kill us. I do recall saying that the overall nastiness and danger of the environment might take years off our lives.
In answer to the question, why stay then? I also pointed out that for older folks, we are not going to be taking this in as long as younger people. It is a gradual poisoning, we can all take so much, but year after year, it builds up. But even beyond that, in my case, I accept every day that this could be my last day, because my personal rewards here are much greater than back home. So yeah, I could sit in my clean, safe retirement area back in the west, going to the lake (alone, or with old guys), with no real excitement other than enjoying the beauty of nature, which is quite nice. But there are even greater rewards for me here, and so, I have chosen.
| Quote: |
| If a stall sells spoiled food then they won't stay in business long |
In an organized system, that would be true. But food poisoning does not work that way, it can onset in 5 minutes or 24 hours. You cannot really prove which place was the culprit, and there is no health department tracking calls from customers so they can find the pattern. People feel queasy, they go to the can, they get over it, they move on. Eventually your stomach can deal with it, mentally you get used to it too. I would say, these people do not operate with the mentality of thinking of their customers as long term assets. Some of them do, the bigger ones should, but the mentality of the workers is not "serve no food unfit for human consumption". Instead, it is "short term profits are all I can think about, long term means nothing to me". We see that every day in our lives. How many times have you had somebody cheat you out of 50 cents over here and lose you as a potential customer forever? So yeah, the better places will try to give you safe food, but I eat at various locations, normal, VN style food for 30,000 a meal or even less, and when you just go around to those places like I do (and I suspect most of us do), traveling, trying new places, you really never know what you are getting. Again, it is not just the food either, it is the beverages, the air, the handles on the faucets, the rats in the food storage, the unclean hands of the food prep people, it is mostly everything, you cannot avoid it, you cannot see it, though you can sometimes smell it.
I sometimes come home late down some rather questionable areas, I see the monster trucks belching their fumes, hogging the road, the guys who stay out all night sitting around looking shady, people setting little fires off to burn garbage or pray for luck or dead relatives or whatever they are doing. Trash and rubble everywhere, the respectable people (also the cops) have locked themselves up for the night. It looks and feels and smells like a war zone. In a way, I like it, it seems very real to me, compared to my retirement house back in the states where nothing ever happens except the weather. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't read this whole thread so I don't know if anyone has already posted this.
American teachers (in the US of course) work more hours than any other teachers in the industrialized world by a pretty big margin. The difference in hours worked over a school year between the US and the number 2 country is significantly larger than the difference between any other country and the country following it on on the list.
The pay for US teachers is also quite low. Not the lowest but significantly close to the bottom. Fourth worst if I'm not mistaken.
My point being that US teacher work hours and pay are not the metric you want to use in an international market like EFL.
The British for example had much fewer hours and much more pay. I'm sure VN hiring managers would love to focus a negotiation on US pay and hours. Don't fall for that.
I hope this is helpful. The list was published by Forbes a couple years ago. I haven't looked for a recent link. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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This article doesn't agree with you.
Highest Paid teachers:
Luxembourg
Germany
Canada
Ireland
Netherlands
Denmark
Scotland
Australia
Korea
USA
Japan
England
Teachers in Luxembourg get paid a ridiculous amount ($95k average), but ignoring that, German teachers get paid $10k more than American ones according to this list. But American teachers do get paid slightly more than British ones. American teachers are 9th out of 33 countries on this list. Below them are countries like Belgium, Spain, Italy, France, Finland, Norway, Sweden. Maybe the Forbes list is about pay per hour? |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
| I don't recall saying the food would probably kill us. I do recall saying that the overall nastiness and danger of the environment might take years off our lives. |
Maybe it will. Anything is possible but, like I said, if I believed that was a real risk then I wouldn't stay here. I don't want to keep harping on it, but, the evidence indicates that the population here enjoys a reasonable life expectancy given the standard of medical care that is available. If the risks of years being taken off our lives were substantial then that would be reflected in the stats. Anyway, that's just how I see it and if you look at differently then no problem.
| mark_in_saigon wrote: |
In an organized system, that would be true. But food poisoning does not work that way, it can onset in 5 minutes or 24 hours. You cannot really prove which place was the culprit, and there is no health department tracking calls from customers so they can find the pattern. People feel queasy, they go to the can, they get over it, they move on. Eventually your stomach can deal with it, mentally you get used to it too. I would say, these people do not operate with the mentality of thinking of their customers as long term assets. Some of them do, the bigger ones should, but the mentality of the workers is not "serve no food unfit for human consumption". Instead, it is "short term profits are all I can think about, long term means nothing to me". We see that every day in our lives. How many times have you had somebody cheat you out of 50 cents over here and lose you as a potential customer forever? So yeah, the better places will try to give you safe food, but I eat at various locations, normal, VN style food for 30,000 a meal or even less, and when you just go around to those places like I do (and I suspect most of us do), traveling, trying new places, you really never know what you are getting. Again, it is not just the food either, it is the beverages, the air, the handles on the faucets, the rats in the food storage, the unclean hands of the food prep people, it is mostly everything, you cannot avoid it, you cannot see it, though you can sometimes smell it. |
Unfortunately, as I have already stated, I've had quite a bit of experience with food poisoning and, every time it has happened, I've been pretty damn sure what caused it. Could I prove it? Probably not, but, after I went through it, I sure as hell never ate at the same place again. I'm fairly selective of where I eat and always have been. I don't eat cheaply, but, I like to think I eat safely and I'm a very loyal customer to the restaurants that I like.
In regards to how sustainable a business can be if they supply an inferior product in a competitive marketplace, I'd say not very. Moreover, a Vietnamese market is extremely competitive. The buyers are invariably experienced, knowledgeable and are regular and repeat customers who are trying, often desperately, to get the most from their limited financial resources. There are also several sellers who are basically in the same place and selling the exact same thing as their competitors. The only way a stall there can succeed is to provide a reasonable product at a reasonable price. If someone suspects that such-and-such a merchant sold a product that made their family sick then they are not going to buy from them again and word will get around.
In regards to common Vietnamese business practices (i.e. losing a potential customer over an extra fifty cent markup), well, that's just part of the dance. Don't get me wrong, I don't like it and I think it's short-sighted, but that's just the way many of the people here do things and Westerners seem to take it far more personally than the Vietnamese do. However, I doubt they would be so tolerant if their family were made ill by buying some bad produce.
Anyway, for me, it's all pretty academic because, like I said, I don't shop in the markets. I go to the supermarkets and the presentation of the produce there looks pretty much the same as it does back home. Earlier you mentioned the use of insecticides and chemicals, and, as someone who has spent a lot of time around farms and farmers, I have no hesitation in saying that they are very widely used back in the West as well. Probably more so there than here simply due to their expense. Moreover, I very much doubt that we are as exposed to GM food here as we would be in many of home countries. Don't get me wrong, I'm personally not alarmed by GM foods and I think they have enormous potential. However, many people argue that GM foods are potentially dangerous as we do not know yet what the cumulative effects will be. Not really that dissimilar from the sentiments that you have expressed regarding the Vietnamese urban environment. You also mentioned agent orange, but, I don't really want to comment too much on that, simply because I know very little about it. |
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Dream_Seller
Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 78
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'm preparing to move and start a new life (in a positive direction) in Vietnam. At this point this thread has been read like 900 times.
Trying to make any country like America is not why I am moving to Vietnam. For all the reasons that it is not like America is also why it is so attractive.
We should all live our lives according to OUR personal values not what some outside force is telling us. Mine includes travel and pursing joy.
Some people love organic foods and chemical free shampoos....who am I to judge them. Go for it, do what turns you on  |
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mark_in_saigon
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 837
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| On the issue of health and all, I moved my part of the discussion over to the "issues we cannot resolve" thread, which is a more natural home for it. This thread is really about something specific to work, forget what, getting 40 hours a week or something. The health discussion is important, but really should be in a more logical home for it, soooo, see you there! |
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PC Parrot
Joined: 11 Dec 2009
Posts: 459
Location: Moral Police Station
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks ExpatLuke :D |
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| Dream_Seller wrote: |
If you are carrying restlessness in your heart, then you are alive
If you are carrying the lightning of dreams in your eyes, then you are alive
Learn to live free like the wind
Learn to float with waves like the sea
Embrace every moment with open arms
Let your eyes see a new view every moment
If you are carrying wonder in your eyes, then you are alive
If you are carrying restlessness in your heart, then you are alive
--Farhan Akhtar’s poetry from the film “Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara” |
Is that the same Farhan Akhtar of the Bollywood family fame that was in the Mercedes Benz Star Drive finale?
If a member of the Hollywood family clan, like Cameron Douglas, had written those idealistic lines, what would you have thought of them?
Romanticism is great. I can't seem to throw it off myself. But naivety can land you in a whole heap of doo-doo. |
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Dream_Seller
Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 78
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: PC Parrot |
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| PC Parrot wrote: |
| Dream_Seller wrote: |
If you are carrying restlessness in your heart, then you are alive
If you are carrying the lightning of dreams in your eyes, then you are alive
Learn to live free like the wind
Learn to float with waves like the sea
Embrace every moment with open arms
Let your eyes see a new view every moment
If you are carrying wonder in your eyes, then you are alive
If you are carrying restlessness in your heart, then you are alive
--Farhan Akhtar’s poetry from the film “Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara” |
Is that the same Farhan Akhtar of the Bollywood family fame that was in the Mercedes Benz Star Drive finale?
If a member of the Hollywood family clan, like Cameron Douglas, had written those idealistic lines, what would you have thought of them?
Romanticism is great. I can't seem to throw it off myself. But naivety can land you in a whole heap of doo-doo. |
Yeah I don't know much about Bollywood...all I know is that yes this poet and his family are one of the richest families in India and are cultural icons. But I hear what you are saying. I will plan wisely :/ |
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Dream_Seller
Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 78
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:04 am Post subject: |
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on second thought...still moving to Vietnam...come what may.
To say I shouldn't value the words of an artist because he comes from wealth, is like saying all artists must be poor. I'm sure there have been many influential artists that came from rich families.
Many Many ESL teachers have gone before me to China...Korea and Vietnam...and they still have all their organs. They eat, laugh save a little for a rainy day.
Their lives no matter how difficult are also better than becoming best friends with google for 10 hours and commutting 2 hours. Commutting an hour to work is not even a crazy thought for the typical American. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Dream_Seller wrote: |
on second thought...still moving to Vietnam...come what may.
To say I shouldn't value the words of an artist because he comes from wealth, is like saying all artists must be poor. I'm sure there have been many influential artists that came from rich families.
Many Many ESL teachers have gone before me to China...Korea and Vietnam...and they still have all their organs. They eat, laugh save a little for a rainy day.
Their lives no matter how difficult are also better than becoming best friends with google for 10 hours and commutting 2 hours. Commutting an hour to work is not even a crazy thought for the typical American. |
"I'm a dreamin' man, yes that's my problem, I can't tell when I'm not being real "........let me wake you up.
Picture absolute mayhem on the roads, pissin rain or massive heat, a very modest disposable income, a teachers' room jam packed with Gen Yers updating their facebook or tweeting that they just had a meal in the new expat restaurant that's soo funky and you just might wish you were back in your cubicle and still living in a country that the overwhelming majority of people on earth would sell their firstborn to have the opportunity to live in.
Hope it turns out like you hope, regardless, you're in for quite a ride. |
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PC Parrot
Joined: 11 Dec 2009
Posts: 459
Location: Moral Police Station
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dream_Seller wrote: |
on second thought...still moving to Vietnam...come what may.
To say I shouldn't value the words of an artist because he comes from wealth, is like saying all artists must be poor. I'm sure there have been many influential artists that came from rich families.
Many Many ESL teachers have gone before me to China...Korea and Vietnam...and they still have all their organs. They eat, laugh save a little for a rainy day.
Their lives no matter how difficult are also better than becoming best friends with google for 10 hours and commutting 2 hours. Commutting an hour to work is not even a crazy thought for the typical American. |
I'm not in the slightest saying that all artists should be poor ... good friends of mine make good money in the UK through their art and I wish them every success .. I would be thankful to have their talent ..
What they are not doing though is telling people to be 'free like the wind' and 'float like the waves on the sea' when they themselves have come from a background in which they have never been bogged down by the fear of knowing where their next meal was going to come from ..
If this guy was a sadhu living in the hills, then I would have a lot of respect for his words. But coming as they do from the gold plated pen of a pampered merc-driving poseur, the words mean very little indeed.
I couldn't give two hoots if you go to Vietnam, but if you put pretentious crap on the net in an effort to explain your spiritual dilemma, just don't expect people to go along with it .. |
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