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Riyadh Terrs in Drive-by Slaying
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12473
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:32 pm    Post subject: Fuel to the fire Reply with quote

Dear Paul in Saudi,
When I see someone pouring gasoline (i.e. petrol) on a fire set by arsonists, I don't see anything wrong in decrying both the arsonists and those doing the pouring.
Regards,
John
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spicegirl



Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scot47 - I briefly saw Adam's post this morning before it was removed - it seemed to be rather a long political rant about Arabs. I didn't even bother to read down to the bottom. Don't think you missed much. Depends what you mean by 'naughty'.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12241
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The intervention in Iraq from Day One has been a disaster. GB and TB were behind it. I blame them for the destabilisation of the Middle East.
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Gordon



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Middle East was destabilized long before GB and TB. Or are you referring to the current destabilization? There are so many, I seem to have lost track.
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 16022
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gordon,

"Destabilization" is a relative term and the "Middle East" is a big place.

After living and traveling around the Middle East for the last 20 years I would say that up until this past year, for a western expat, the Middle East was as safe as Japan. As I woman, I have traveled it on my own, walked wherever I wanted, at any hour of the day or night, and in some of the places that I lived, I didn't even have to lock my door and could leave my keys in the ignition of my car. I compared it to friends at home to be like small town America in the 1950's.

That is most definitely not true since last year. And what has been the change? The idiotic policies of aggressive war that were undertaken by GW and TB. They have upped the ante and we all lose.

VS
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Pilot in Command



Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in Saudi Arabia in '96 when the Khobar Towers was hit -- 19 Americans lost their lives, if memory serves me. I believe this wasn't long after the bombing in Riyadh in front of an American Contractor's office.

That country has been unstable for a l-o-n-g time. It's just that this conflict in Iraq is serving as the springboard for the emergence of more of the anti-Western feelings that have been simmering beneath the surface for years.

Think it'll get better?
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 16022
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2004 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.

I think the damage done by the unprovoked attack on Iraq will not be repaired in our lifetime. Perhaps not even in the lifetime of our grandchildren.

And all SO avoidable--------

Just my opinion.

VS
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12241
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dogs of War have been unleashed. I think we are in for a long period of increasing conflict and uncertainty.

My concern is that our "leaders" seem to have no understanding of how they have poured petrol on the flames.
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry to say that I share the pessimistic outlook of the above two posters - at least on this subject!

The damage caused by the needless invasion and occupation of Iraq - combined with other "Western"policies in the ME, chiefly, as I have said, the unconditonal support given to Israel and the Gulf monarchies - have caused hatred for the US and its proxies to reach a point of no return, at least not in the foreseeable future.

AS I write, I am hearing that the Imam Ali shrine in Najaf has been damaged in fighting. And they say it can't get any worse...

BTW, I'm going to voice some dissent here (who me? Never!) I actually don't agree that the Middle East is fundamentally unstable. Much of the ME has in fact been remarkably stable over the past several decades, all things considered. I think the perception that the ME is a region in constant upheaval owes much to the weasel words of certain TV stations covering the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, who prefer to use the anodyne term "Middle East" to refer to what is essentially a local conflict played out on an area about the size of a postage stamp. Which is not to say, of course, that it does not have ramifications throughout the ME, because it certainly does. But the lazy use of the term"Middle East" in my mind, paints a false picture of what is basically a peaceful region.
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleopatra wrote:
Incidentally, I don't think using phrases like "bad guys" and "evil" help our discussion very much.


Well, whaddaya know, we agree on something...

Cleopatra wrote:
Invading a country which posed you no threat on false pretexts, and then doing a catastrophic job of occupation, thereby enflaming a whole rigion which was already enraged at the US for its unconditional support of Israel and the Gulf dictatorships, is pretty high on my list of "criminal activities".


But I don't think that the foregoing is much of an improvement over "bad guys" and "evil". In fact, I think it's worse.

BD
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12473
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:41 pm    Post subject: And why is it "the Middle East" Reply with quote

And - to go off on a tangent here - just why should it still be called:

The Middle East?

What's it in the middle of?

The designation's just a hold-over from the days of British colonialism, isn't it, along with " the Far East" and "the Near East"?

So, let's think up a NEW name for the area - any suggestions?
Regards,
John
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this help?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1154165,00.html


Last edited by Cleopatra on Tue May 25, 2004 1:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12473
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:45 pm    Post subject: The good, the bad and the ugly Reply with quote

Dear Bindair Dundat,

Quote:
But I don't think that the foregoing is much of an improvement over "bad guys" and "evil". In fact, I think it's worse.


Maybe so, but you've got to admit - it's more rhetorically resplendent.

Regards,
John
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Bindair Dundat



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleopatra wrote:
But the lazy use of the term"Middle East" in my mind, paints a false picture of what is basically a peaceful region.


Well, lookee here, we agree on something else!

But I don't think that "peaceful" and "unstable" are mutually exclusive, at least in this case; nor are the past few relatively stable decades much of a basis for judgement. I think that many ME countries are much like Yugoslavia: invented after WWII and held together by dictatorial force.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12473
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:48 pm    Post subject: Can't get there from here Reply with quote

Dear Cleopatra,

Quote:
Does this help?


Hmm, well, not really - I think you need to edit the [/url] out of the web site address.
Regards,
John

P.S. See you beat me to it - but, still no connection

"We haven't been able to serve the page you asked for.

If you typed in a URL, please make sure you have typed it correctly. In particular, make sure that the URL you typed is all in lower case.

If you clicked on a link on the site, please fill in the form below and send it to us and we will fix the link (Note: Fields marked in red are required.)"

P.P.S.

OK, now you've got it. Thanks. And hey - sounds like the guy agrees with me (clearly a very intelligent individual).


Last edited by johnslat on Tue May 25, 2004 1:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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