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The end is nigh! Well, maybe.
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Banner41



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 567
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in a transitional period with my job (they wanted to move me from one city to another) They offered me a better contract to move or a severance (1 month for every year worked + contact end bonus pro-rated for that year). I chose to stay with them and move. My company follows the rules and I do pay into the social insurance scheme so it was nice to see them want to do the right thing. Big reason I stayed.

Edit to add: If they have been paying taxes properly, I see no reason you couldn't make a claim on a severance package. Worst thing is to show up and find out they were not paying taxes properly and you get screwed in the end. It is in the law.

Another law that was applied to me was vacation time. They asked when I started working (not just in China but in life). I told them at 18. I was given 5 extra days of vacation due to the length of time I have worked in my life. It is Chinese law that they have to give you that extra vacation time.....sorry to derail a bit.
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Shroob



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1333

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if this is true ("severance", extra holiday time, etc.), then the vast majority of FAOs are truly laughing at us.
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Banner41



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 567
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shroob wrote:
I think if this is true ("severance", extra holiday time, etc.), then the vast majority of FAOs are truly laughing at us.


As am I....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_statutory_minimum_employment_leave_by_country

http://www.chinalawblog.org/law-topics/employment-law/94-china-severence-pay-law-and-how-to-calculate-severence-pay

All kidding aside

They actually might not implicitly state vacation or severance in your contract because it is seen as short term employment year to year. It is like a you are a non-continuous employee and it would reset each year with each new contract. You should however been seen as a long term employee if you have multiple years under your belt with the same company/school. As always TIC. It's in my contract.....so I get it.....
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Spyro



Joined: 09 Dec 2011
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are on grounds that have been tread lightly by English Teachers in China. Just based off my experience, I would say that you wouldn't get severance pay simply because its China. I am just not too optimistic about it and even if you have a "right" to that money (in the case they don't offer you a renewal), I have a feeling they can get around it somehow.

Let us know the results though. This could be valuable information for future teachers.
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zactherat



Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kev, I have been reading your comments on here for years and it has been really interesting to get an insight into life down the road in SZ.

After 10 years in China, it must be hard to go back the the States.

How are you planning to re-adjust? Are you going to work full-time? Have you saved enough to invest and secure an income?
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kev7161



Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5776
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have been saving and saving - regular savings account and a retirement account as well. It's never going to be enough I feel because, although it seems like a large amount, it will be eaten through quickly with new car, place to live and much more. Yes, I'm sure I will work full time. I have an idea for a small business I may want to try, but don't want to go into that here to save myself from ridicule. Rolling Eyes

Luckily, I also still have a strong family and friend support system as I've kept in touch and have returned home every summer for visits so I'm sure they will be quite helpful in one way or another.

I'm actually very excited about returning and not worrying too much about reintegrating myself within my familiar community, but I can't imagine it will be smooth sailing. Will I be hire-able? I don't plan on getting back into education there, but I'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I just talked with the guy who does contracts at my school and it seems like they will at least offer me the contract for next year. I have to see what the details are before I agree, of course, but this thread may be moot if that comes about. The only reason I'm considering ONE MORE YEAR is to pad my savings a bit more, which I think may well be necessary.

PS: I've actually been in China nearly 11 years now! Yikes!
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Beyond1984



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 453

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: "Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers..." Reply with quote

Hi Kev,

I've enjoyed your posts over the years, and found your most recent announcement about possibly leaving China especially interesting.

You have saved what "seems like a large amount" while working in China for the past 11 years.

Many of us have learned to be frugal here, knowing that the Chinese, even dirt farmers earning maybe a dollar a day, usually save about 50% of their income.

All of us are used to the question, "How much do you earn?"

Would it be impertinent for me to inquire, "How much have you saved?"

All best wishes for your continued success,
-HDT
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MisterButtkins



Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1215

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have never heard of this. Would be absolutely shocked if anything came of it.

I'm not really getting this concept of 'severance pay'. Why would you get money for leaving a job? Doesn't make sense to me.
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Banner41



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 567
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MisterButtkins wrote:
Have never heard of this. Would be absolutely shocked if anything came of it.

I'm not really getting this concept of 'severance pay'. Why would you get money for leaving a job? Doesn't make sense to me.


If it is your decision, it would not be offered. If it is their decision it can be offered (but in most cases not). It is written into my contract in specific terms so I would get something if they decided to let me go. They are not under any real obligation to offer it unless it was to smooth over a bad transition or as part of a non-compete or keeping company secrets. It is a rare bird but not totally unheard of. Contract completion bonuses are often times seen by employers as a "severance" deal.
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Shroob



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1333

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Banner41 wrote:
MisterButtkins wrote:
Have never heard of this. Would be absolutely shocked if anything came of it.

I'm not really getting this concept of 'severance pay'. Why would you get money for leaving a job? Doesn't make sense to me.


If it is your decision, it would not be offered. If it is their decision it can be offered (but in most cases not). It is written into my contract in specific terms so I would get something if they decided to let me go. They are not under any real obligation to offer it unless it was to smooth over a bad transition or as part of a non-compete or keeping company secrets. It is a rare bird but not totally unheard of. Contract completion bonuses are often times seen by employers as a "severance" deal.


May I ask what the specific wording is? Also how long have you been with your employer?
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kev7161



Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5776
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea isn't that an employer is giving you money because you are leaving a job. It's "supposed" to be there to protect the employee from being let go with no legitimate reason. Sure, FTs come and go like the wind here in China, but some (like me) have stayed on the same job for years and years. If the school decides to not offer me a new contract for some non-legit reason (say, they think they can hire a teacher to replace me and pay him half the salary they currently pay me), yet I'm willing and able to stay on for another year, then, yeah, they'd be obliged to pay out a severance. The labor law is there to TRY and keep companies - *cough* *choke* TIC! *cough!* - honest!
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kev7161 wrote:
If the school decides to not offer me a new contract for some non-legit reason (say, they think they can hire a teacher to replace me and pay him half the salary they currently pay me), yet I'm....



wow. how is that not legit? you get an annual contract with no obligation
on either party to renew. at the end of the contract, it's over. the
following year, if you remain, will be on a brand new contract.....NOT a
continuation of the first one-year contract. you will essentially be a
new hire. and once you understand that, you can see why you won't
be getting 9 years of severance pay. you were never a 9-year employee.
you were a 1-year employee. nine times.
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kev7161



Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5776
Location: Suzhou, China

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not according to Chinese labor law, oh wise one. Your logic is very flawed. By the way, the severance law is for Chinese citizens as well. Probably not too many companies sign employees to ten year contracts. Pretty much all of my Chinese friends have left jobs at Chinese New Year break. This is the traditional time when many contracts end. Some get end of year bonuses, others are legally able to leave their jobs, should they do so, without breaking contract and having penalties given. We may get treated differently than Chinese citizens, but the laws established are (allegedly) for anyone working in China for a Chinese company, school, whatever.
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We may get treated differently than Chinese citizens, but the laws established are (allegedly) for anyone working in China for a Chinese company, school, whatever.


Word!
Quote:

but some (like me) have stayed on the same job for years and years.


9 years and counting.....I am checking into this and British law as well.
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choudoufu



Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kev7161 wrote:
...oh wise one...


even the wisest make misteaks. Embarassed from my current contract:

Article 21 Termination of Contract

21.3 If the law requires a severance payment upon the termination of
the Contract, Party A shall pay in accordance with the law. The payment
will be calculated in accordance with 28.1 of the Contract.

Article 22 Cancellation of Contract

....(some stuff about reasons for cancellation with no penalty for Party A)

22.3 Party A can cancel the Contract if one of the following circumstances
occurs but must give Party B 30 days' prior written notice:

....(a list of circumstances)

22.3.6 After the expiration of the Contract, Party A and Party B have not
renewed the Contract but Party B has formed an actual employment
relationship and the two Parties cannot reach agreement on the period of
validity and terms on renewing the contract.

Article 28 Party A's liabilities for breach of Contract

28.1 In the event that Party A cancels the Contract in accordance with
22.3 of the Contract, it should pay severance pay to Party B in accordance
with relevant regulations of the central government......(goes on the
repeat the relevant regulation with payment equal to one months
average wage per year worked).
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