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25 years on from Afghanistan withdrawal
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9792
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:46 am    Post subject: 25 years on from Afghanistan withdrawal Reply with quote

Not a bad piece from William Dalrymple:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26483320

Even has a quotation from Hegel!
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some excellent comparisons indeed. I liked the estimates of both wars costs especially, although i'd like to see how much Americans really spent on supporting the insurgents against Soviets then. It appears that the US administration had backed and financed the ones who became terrorists later.

The recent interview with Karzai, who hasn't just been elected by his own nation but the west as well, may offer the view on how angry the Afghans may be on Americans today.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interview-karzai-says-12-year-afghanistan-war-has-left-him-angry-at-us-government/2014/03/02/b831671c-a21a-11e3-b865-38b254d92063_story.html
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12904
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt that there are too many warm, brotherly feelings about Russia among Afghanis, either:

"Hate Is The Legacy Of
The Soviet Invasion


Dear Mr. Rense,

On several occasions, I relied on your kindness in conveying the pain and sufferings of my people. Most of the time I have articulated their pain in light of the current disaster on by the US government. However, today, I like to make a note of the recent history--the period that is characterized by the loss of over 1.2 million Afghan lives, and 1 to 2 million maimed. This agony started with the invasion by the former Soviet Union facilitated by their self-sold surrogates--the Afghan Communists--Khalqis and Parchamis.

The Russians installed a communist regime in late 1977 and early 1978. this regime resorted to Stalin style brutality of mass murder and subjugation of the population--with the aim to eradicate Islamic values from the Afghan society. There are very few cases of brutality that rival the brutality of these murderer thugs of the communist regime.

High school students of tenth grade had the right to bring anyone they considered subversive and execute him. People in the thousands were jailed and were executed. In fact, near the Pul-e-Charkhi prison in Kabul, large craters would be prepared and then the officer in charge would call Chief of the presidential guard asking him about the number of buses he would send. Accordingly, the party officials at the prison would round up that number of prisoners that would occupy all the buses. Then the buses would be sent to the site of the dug out craters. There, the prisoners would be lined up and shot, while some would be pushed into the craters and buried alive. In fact, two brothers survived this incident and lived to tell about it.

In another example, the communist governor of Kandahar murdered 34 peasants by beating them and using large rocks to crush their heads. Finally Afghan people rose against the communist regime. The regime was about to be toppled until their master--the Russians-the former USSR came to the rescue.

The Russians committed horrific crimes all over Afghanistan. One Russian soldier was telling about his experience how he and his colleagues burned entire families with gasoline to see how they would die. The Russians used mastard gas in Bamian province and other parts of Afghanistan. They used all the weapons in their weapons only to be defeated like dogs and retreated in 1989. I lost many family members to the Russian soldiers, but I also have many family members including myself that have blow russian Spietnaz Special Forces to dirt.

The US abandoned Afghanistan and left Afghanistan with 15 million mines, the following decade more than 1 million Afghans became maimed by these mines. And then in 2001, they claimed they went there to liberate us, what a joke.

So, let this be known, the Afghans, including myself have a utter hatred for the Russians--their peoiple and their governments--and the communists, who currently exhibit themselves as the peaceful actors. These mass murderers--Afghan communists--who have killed millions of Afghans were given sanctuary in western Europe and the USA, a testimonial to the hypocrisy of the West. For the US and her allies whenit serves its interests, they would label others war criminals while given sactuary to the murderous Khalqis and Parchamis--the Afghan communists. What a shame.

We do not need Bin Ladens of the world to tell us who our enemies are, we know--the enemies of Islam are our enemies--the Russians and US governemnt and her allies--a fact established by several historical precedents.

Mohammed Daud Miraki, MA, MA, PhD
www.afghandufund.org
mdmiraki@ameritech.net

Kindly also read the following article:


Hate Is The Legacy Of The Soviet Invasion Of Afghanistan

By Abdul Qadir Munsef, with Naeem Qaderi in Mazar-e-Sharif
Pajhwok Afghan News


KABUL - A quarter of a century ago on this day, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. The attackers retreated a decade later, but the thing which still remains is the hate in the heart of many an Afghan.

The then-USSR invaded Afghanistan with 120,000 troops on December 24. They were obliged to quit the country in 1989 due to the strong resistance of Afghans. During those long years, one and a half million Afghans were martyred and thousands of Russians soldiers died.

Afghan national journal chief editor, Mohammad Hassan Walsmal, said about the attack: "Russians were disloyal to Afghans in friendship."

He believed the Afghans were good neighbors of the Russians, but that the latter ignored all the international standards and invaded Afghanistan.

They had oppressed the Afghans severely, he said. "Such brutalities have been done that the mouth cannot say them and the pen cannot write them."

He says Afghans detest the Russians, that the cruelties done by Russians are unforgettable, and that Afghans will have tart memories for ever.

But he noted: "There are still some people (Afghans) that the Russians paid money, who consider Russians good."

Regarding Afghanistan's current relations with Russia, Khaliq Ahmed Khaliq, of the government's publication office, had only this to say: "The Afghan government is trying to have good relations with all neighbors, and with the Russian government have good relations as well."

But hostility to that country remains a common theme.

About how Afghans compared today's Russia with the Soviet Union of a quarter of a century ago, Ruhollah Babakerkhil saw no difference.

According to him, the invasion of the former USSR was the responsibility of today's Russia.

The education ministry transportation deputy, Mohammad Omer Wasim, still felt the effects of that time. "The Russians are the main cause of all misfortunes; Afghans are still in flames due to them."

http://www.rense.com/general61/hate.htm

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9792
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

The Afghans may hate the Russians. But they are just laughing at the NATO troops there.


With Communist greetings

Sasha
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12904
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

Well, personally, I'd MUCH rather be "laughed at" than hated - but to each his own.

Regards,
John
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

Personal is what we have made it and what has made it worse.

The hatred that we are suggesting may be bought on the market or inherited through cultures.

Historically, the region, which we are debating, is way too far from the US radar, although plenty of smoke has been imposed on many innocent people there.

Investing in the neighborhood so far out of our reach has clearly neither paid off nor corrupted the minds of folks who don’t believe what we believe in.

Drawing parallels in between what society is closer to the embattled Afghanis, who may relate more to their northern neighbors than the ones from across the ocean, may be trickier than we think or have learnt from our books.

Respectfully yours,
Joe
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12904
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear wonderingjoesmith,

Most of the time, I'd say, a smallish, fairly weak country has a lot more animosity of a big, powerful neighbor than of a one-time interloper from thousands of miles away - even if only for historical reasons.

The Vietnamese, for example. tend to be much more wary of China than of the US these days.

That "relation" you wrote about is usually suspicion and distrust.

Good fences make good neighbors. Very Happy

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9792
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

I agree! Look at the mess since the Berlin Wall came down!


With Communist greetings

Sasha
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12904
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

Can I assume, then, that you stand behind (so to speak) the proposal to build a wall (electronic fence, really) on the border between Mexico and the US? Very Happy
How about one on the borders between Russia and China?

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9792
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

A wall/fence between the US and her source of free slaves in no way advances the Socialist cause. A wall keeping the Chinese splitters influence at bay would do this. Therefore only the latter option is in accord with correct thinking.


With Communist greetings

Sasha
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

The history of nations around the world may be a bit different than our books and that especially when it comes to politics.

Meddling in the break-up of Soviet Union and planning/putting military bases around Russia and in between Russia and Afghanistan may not have been such a good idea after all; in fact, quite a contradiction to what JFK opposed to when Soviets tried it in Cuba.

Walls or cutrains seem to have been safer than snooping or politicizing and that's why our buddy Gorby would have never succeeded again.

Respectfully yours,
Joe
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12904
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Joe,

"SOMETHING there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast."

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/01/06/when_good_fences_can_make_bad_neighbours.html

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 9792
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Mr Obama, tear down this wall!"
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12904
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

No need to - it doesn't work anyway: "In fact, the Border Patrol's own statistics show that the border walls have not brought about a decrease in illegal entries. The border patrol uses the number of border crossers apprehended in a given sector to gauge the overall number of attempted crossings. Apprehensions dropped dramatically between 2005, the year before the Secure Fence Act was passed, and 2007, the year after. But the decrease did not occur in areas where border walls had been built. On the contrary, the greatest reductions in apprehensions, which according to the Border Patrol would indicate a successful strategy for stopping undocumented immigration, were seen in sectors that did not have walls. Even before the passage of the Secure Fence Act, it was clear that border walls did not reduce the number of people entering the United States. The Congressional Research Service found that the number of border crossers apprehended nationally in 1992 was the same as the number apprehended in 2004, after walls in San Diego had been erected. They concluded that migrant traffic had simply shifted to more remote areas in Arizona and that "increased enforcement in San Diego sector has had little impact on overall apprehensions." Migrants were not stopped by border walls; they simply went around them.
Nothing More Than a Symbol

Other researchers have studied the effectiveness of the border wall and border enforcement by analyzing how successful migrants are at getting through it. The Migrant Policy Institute found that 97% of undocumented immigrants eventually succeed in entering the United States, a number that has been unchanged since the first border walls went up in 1995. Wayne Cornelius, Director of the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies at the University of California-San Diego told the House Judiciary Committee that according to his research.

Tightened border enforcement since 1993 has not stopped nor even discouraged unauthorized migrants from entering the United States. Even if apprehended, the vast majority (92-97%) keep trying until they succeed. Neither the higher probability of being apprehended by the Border Patrol, nor the sharply increased danger of clandestine entry through deserts and mountainous terrain, has discouraged potential migrants from leaving home.

Assertions by pundits and politicians that walls will allow the U.S. to "secure" its southern border are patently false. Spokespersons for the Border Patrol tend to describe it much more modestly. Del Rio, Texas, Border Patrol Chief Randy Hill said, "We're going to see steel barriers erected on the borders where U.S. and Mexican cities adjoin. These will slow down illegal crossers by minutes." Not stop crossers, or allow the Border Patrol to "achieve and maintain operational control" of the border, but slow them down by "minutes." As Border Patrol spokesperson Mike Scioli said, "The border fence is a speed bump in the desert."

http://www.no-border-wall.com/walls-do-not-work.php

Regards,
John
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wonderingjoesmith



Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear John,

I may as well throw in one or two references to secret tunnels for border crossings, but how would that serve the topic and unfortunate Afghanis?

What may or may not work is probably irrelevant to people who have lost their lives or loved ones now, and the only solution under the circumstances may be a big fat arse roof over the whole country that has been under a constant surveillance and attacks from air.

Tightened border enforcement or not, Soviets and Americans have proved to Afghanis that neither the laws nor the nation's resources will keep them safe.

I vote for Afghanistan to be added peacefully to the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region and China that will more likely than their own uncertain government keep the Afghanis safe and well fed and educated in one language.

Respectfully yours,
Joe
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