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Salary in company
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blaz88



Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Salary in company Reply with quote

Looking for opinions on amount I should ask for in terms of salary to teach 88 hours a month plus other general English assistance to an IT company in Wroclaw.
There is no school involved. I do not want to spend 8 hours per day there either and they know this.

cheers
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 520

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4000zl a month net on umowa o prace would be sensible. More if they're only willing to hire you under umowa zlecenie.

But I'd also be looking for your own desk there and to be treated as a proper employee. If they're looking for someone to come in and out, then I'd be asking for more simply because of the lack of security.
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Janek



Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Krakow, Poland

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a similar job and charge 120 PLN per hour. I don't know if you have your own business.

Schools in Krakow take about 120 PLN, I am pretty sure that it won't be less in Wroclaw. Why should you take less?
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 520

PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because any company with an ounce of sense knows that 120zl an hour for 88 hours is not realistic. It is what, 10k a month gross? No manager is going to sign that off, not when there are plenty of schools willing to supply natives for 65zl an hour who have experience in the corpo world.
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1030

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delphiandomine wrote:

Quote:
No manager is going to sign that off, not when there are plenty of schools willing to supply natives for 65zl an hour who have experience in the corpo world.


65/hr....for who? A native with "experience in the corpo world" is going to expect 60zl net, on average, so that leaves the school with......nothing. Maybe I'm just not following you.
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blaz88



Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly, I have been teaching here in Wroclaw 6 years, 4000 is not even what I made when I was working just for a school, I am thinking 6500 min. Plus I don't want to be there 8 hours a day, they know this. Plus I won't be working fridays as I must travel every morning to a different city. I was wondering what does the school charge the company when they supply a native speaker? I have one contract in which I work for a school and teach in a company, I receive 60 zloty per 60 minutes. What profit does the school take?
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Richfilth



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 225
Location: Warszawa

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're putting a lot of restrictions on your flexibility with your demands, and it's going to affect the price. For example, you don't want to do an 8-hour day, or work Fridays. But there are only 20 or 21 working days in a month, and if you take 4/5 Fridays off that, you've got 16/17 days to fit in 88 hours of work - you're still going to be doing a solid block of 5-6 hours at a time, and in all likelihood some of your students will not fit into that window and will want to reschedule. Therefore you'll need to do at least one 8-hour day just to fit everybody in.

As for delph: you seriously suggesting a starting price of 4000 (45zl per hour?) It's advice like that that allows schools to continually drive down teachers' wages to an unsustainable point. I was earning more than 45zl per when I was first came here in 2004. Even 65zl is far too low - he should open the bidding at 100zl per hour and then offer a generous 10% discount for the bulk block of hours; provided, of course, that he can offer enough flexibility to give all the students the number of classes they want.
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ecocks



Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 886
Location: Gdansk, Poland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice based upon the situation you outlined and assuming you're able to bill them for the services:

Tell them your available hours Monday through Thursday. Probably something similar to two class blocks then lunch then two more.

Explain to them that you're giving them a flat rate of 7000 pl per month (gross) plus materials charges (course and supplemental books, etc.).

For 70-75% of your work week, this seems about right unless they are requiring more administrative work or they want you doing a higher percentage of test prep/writing development which requires more grading activity.

As Delph says, I'd hit them up for a desk and chair, Internet access, hopefully a permanently assigned, reasonably-equipped classroom and access to a copier.

YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)


Last edited by ecocks on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 520

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dynow wrote:
delphiandomine wrote:

Quote:
No manager is going to sign that off, not when there are plenty of schools willing to supply natives for 65zl an hour who have experience in the corpo world.


65/hr....for who? A native with "experience in the corpo world" is going to expect 60zl net, on average, so that leaves the school with......nothing. Maybe I'm just not following you.


The thing is that expectations are one thing, but the reality is different - I know several schools that offer a price of between 60-65zl an hour to supply teachers, the logic being that corporate classes are an 'add-on' to their core school activities and therefore getting 10-15zl an hour profit is more than acceptable. There are also plenty of "schools" run from a bedroom - and they simply don't have the same overheads that a traditional school might have.

In a place like Wroclaw with more and more teachers turning up, wages are (just like elsewhere) on a race to the bottom.

richfilth wrote:
As for delph: you seriously suggesting a starting price of 4000 (45zl per hour?)


Not a starting price, but a final price - and with umowa o prace and proper work conditions (ie, access to corporate benefits and so on and so forth). The cost to the company will be significantly more than that, but it means he would have the opportunity to be treated properly and so on. 7000zl on umowa o dzielo isn't really that much if you don't have job security or benefits. For that kind of cooperation, I'd definitely be looking at being treated as a proper employee rather than some hired gun.

blaz88 - it honestly depends on the school. The best trick in this case is to get a friend to pretend to be interested in corporate classes so you can find out their usual rate. I've done this several times with schools and then used it to my advantage in negotiations. But I'd be surprised if there was really that much profit in corporate classes for freelancers like yourself.

Of course, if you want to go the umowa o dzielo/self employed route, then 6500-7000zl (or even higher) is more realistic. The lack of job security and so on is one good reason to aim high.

I would also insist on a regular amount monthly rather than on actual classes. You'll know that corporate clients are notorious for cancelling in July/August, and if you don't agree a regular income with them, you'll be left with nothing in the summer months for certain.
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Janek



Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Krakow, Poland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the language or the city make a difference - I teach about 3-4 days a week, blocks (morning hours), 60-80 hours/month in an IT-company and I charge 120 PLN/h, just like language schools in Krakow do. Strict interpretation of late cancel policy.

Qualifications make a difference as well. It's one thing to teach grammar and business language using coursebooks, it's another one to teach IT-related language. Much more demanding.

And, of course, with an umowa o prace you'll earn less than with an umowa o dzielo or with your own business.

For my last in-company-courses through a language school I got 75 PLN/h. Usually schools usually keep about 50% for themselves.
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Janek



Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Krakow, Poland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, 4000 PLN (umowa o prace) would be way too low as well. This is what a normal customer suport agent in corpoworld gets. A teacher should earn more, like a trainer or a team leader.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 520

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janek wrote:
By the way, 4000 PLN (umowa o prace) would be way too low as well. This is what a normal customer suport agent in corpoworld gets. A teacher should earn more, like a trainer or a team leader.


It depends very much on the role. Those with only English (like most native speakers) will struggle to get anywhere near 4000PLN a month for a customer service role, simply because there's a glut of well qualified English speakers in Poland. A more usual range would be 1900-2500zl for a first line customer support role. It's now becoming normal for companies to insist on English + 1 other language, simply because they can.

Janek wrote:
For my last in-company-courses through a language school I got 75 PLN/h. Usually schools usually keep about 50% for themselves.


There is no way that most language schools are getting anything near 150PLN an hour for corporate classes. They might get it for a class in a difficult to access location for a small 90 minute block but any corporation paying for a significant amount of classes is not going to drop 150zl an hour on classes.

I used to make a point of knowing more or less what most schools were charging in Poznan, and the high end was 100zl an hour. It's quite, quite possible to get a native speaker to a company for 60zl an hour these days, with the native getting 40-50zl of that.

Quote:
And, of course, with an umowa o prace you'll earn less than with an umowa o dzielo or with your own business.


Yes, of course. Those two alternatives are great for someone who isn't here for the long run, but anyone here for a while should try their hardest to get onto umowa o prace. Umowa o dzielo is of highly dubious legality, and running your own business gives you absolutely zero protection from an employer who decides to cut their ties.

I'd also be very wary of negotiating an hourly rate with the usual flood of cancellations in July/August to consider. A proper contract with a salary would negate that - at least in my view, it would make much more sense to take less money but guaranteed money than uncertain money.
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Janek



Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Krakow, Poland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="delphian-domine"]It depends very much on the role. Those with only English (like most native speakers) will struggle to get anywhere near 4000PLN a month for a customer service role, simply because there's a glut of well qualified English speakers in Poland. A more usual range would be 1900-2500zl for a first line customer support role. It's now becoming normal for companies to insist on English + 1 other language, simply because they can.[/quote]

For sure there are many well qualified English speakers in Poland. And a second language is always a plus. So far I agree. But sorry, 2500 PLN as a CS agent? No way, if you are well qualified.

[quote]There is no way that most language schools are getting anything near 150PLN an hour for corporate classes. They might get it for a class in a difficult to access location for a small 90 minute block but any corporation paying for a significant amount of classes is not going to drop 150zl an hour on classes.[/quote]

I don't know Poznan, just one example google shows me: 115 PLN/60 min. in the school, plus 20-40 PLN dojazd.

And I know Krakow very very well. 100-150 PLN/h, this is what schools charge for in-company-courses here.

[quote]I used to make a point of knowing more or less what most schools were charging in Poznan, and the high end was 100zl an hour. It's quite, quite possible to get a native speaker to a company for 60zl an hour these days, with the native getting 40-50zl of that.[/quote]

It is even possible to find one who takes even less. But it is impossible to find a native speaker who manages to explain and teach IT-related stuff to the staff.

Once again. I wouldn't charge less than 8.000 PLN/month. Doing more or less the same (another language, another city, but IT-company) I charge 120 PLN/h. And I allow myself to take off two entire months in the summer.
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blaz88



Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, thanks, got my answer. 65 Zloty per hour is too low. That was my offer, 6500 per month. Now i have a better idea.
I wasn't brought into this world 10 minutes ago, delph, or who ever that is, fucking lost, no clue. I have been working here off and on since 2004. I just didn't know what actual schools were charging. Anyway, I think we all know that a gig with a huge company(bank) is a god send. PLUS i told them i need flexibility to come and go as i please. i hold other positions that bring in income as well so its not end all be all for me.
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 520

PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Janek wrote:
For sure there are many well qualified English speakers in Poland. And a second language is always a plus. So far I agree. But sorry, 2500 PLN as a CS agent? No way, if you are well qualified.


2500PLN is absolutely normal for an English speaker in a first level support environment. It's basic supply and demand, there are so, so, so many young people graduating with a decent command of English that there's no need to pay them very much.

On the other hand, they're throwing money at Dutch/Finnish/Norwegian/Danish/Swedish speakers, simply because there aren't many fluent speakers of those languages in Poland. A friend in Krakow tells me that 6000-7000zl a month for a Norwegian speaker is nothing out of the ordinary, simply because it's still much cheaper than hiring a real Norwegian in Norway to do the job.

Quote:
I don't know Poznan, just one example google shows me: 115 PLN/60 min. in the school, plus 20-40 PLN dojazd.


Where did you find that? Mobile English (a well known franchise) only want 70zl an hour for someone to visit you in the office for an individual class. Sorry, but there's no way in Poznan that a school could charge 115zl an hour and get any business - for instance, take a look at this -

http://poznan.moose.pl/cennik/poznan
http://mobilnylektor.com.pl/cennik

And so on. There's just no way that a school charging over 100zl an hour for corporate classes would survive - I was involved in advising two schools to try and win tenders for language teaching services, and both times, the winning bid was less than 65zl an hour. And the scary part was that the tender for both companies required native speakers on demand.

Quote:
It is even possible to find one who takes even less. But it is impossible to find a native speaker who manages to explain and teach IT-related stuff to the staff.


The problem is that companies always have one eye on the budget. If someone is charging them 120zl an hour and a language school turns up offering them the same service for 80zl an hour, who is going to win? There will always be native speakers willing to take less money for regular employment - which is why I believe in the umowa o prace route.

Quote:
I wasn't brought into this world 10 minutes ago, delph, or who ever that is, fucking lost, no clue. I have been working here off and on since 2004. I just didn't know what actual schools were charging. Anyway, I think we all know that a gig with a huge company(bank) is a god send. PLUS i told them i need flexibility to come and go as i please. i hold other positions that bring in income as well so its not end all be all for me.


Don't be surprised if they also demand flexibility from you as a result. Corporations aren't stupid, and they're not going to agree a contract that sees them agreeing to all sorts of flexibility while paying you a high salary.

If you've got other sources of income, tying them down on umowa o prace would be the most sensible approach. A guaranteed monthly income with all the benefits that normal employees get is going to offer far more than a high per hour rate that suffers from heavy cancellations when there's a sniff of a holiday.

A good way of establishing the intentions of the company is to ask them straight out for umowa o prace and the benefits that the regular employees get (multisport card, etc etc). If they refuse to do it, then you know that they're never going to honour the 88 hours a month.

If you agree to work for them as a contactor, then I can almost guarantee that your contract with them will be very one sided.
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