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Do you know teachers that were deported for visa issues?
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RWA1981



Joined: 27 Mar 2014
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 3:23 am    Post subject: Do you know teachers that were deported for visa issues? Reply with quote

I haven't been here a year just yet but I learned of two teachers in the last month that were detained, fined, and then deported for being caught working on a L visa. And get this, if you don't give the visa cops (PSB) a written apology they give you a 3 year reentry ban! A little extreme wouldn't you say? One of my teaching colleagues says that before the new visa law kicked in before July of 2013 the visa laws were not being enforced but recently I hear a bunch of teachers in Beijing were rounded up in random visits to school. Why the big change in policy? BTW... how much are the fines?

MOD EDIT
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thebroformerlyknownaschou



Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Do you know teachers that were deported for visa issues? Reply with quote

RWA1981 wrote:
...learned of two teachers in the last month that were detained, fined, and then deported for being caught working on a L visa. And get this, if you don't give the visa cops (PSB) a written apology they give you a 3 year reentry ban! A little extreme wouldn't you say?....


THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!!

this means the rule of law may finally be coming to china! laws may finally
be enforced as written! and it's about time! i doubt that any qualified,
legally-employed teacher would take issue with enforcement of visa
regulations (or hiring requirements for that matter).

only good will come of this! why? because it will reduce the supply of
backpacking-pastafarian-itinerant-dancing-laowais, resulting (eventually)
in increased salaries and better working conditions for those who meet
the stated requirements and choose to take employment in accordance
with the law.

it's a good sign, and hopefully signifies a trend. perhaps now the provinces
will accept the safea guidelines for teacher recruitment, and pass new,
more restrictive laws regarding hiring requirements for foreign expert teachers!

as to the extremity of the situation, i disagree. it was awfully friendly of
the police to suspend the three-year ban on condition of a suitable apology
for breaking the law.
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
laws may finally
be enforced as written!


One slight disagreement here... Laws are never enforced as written but as interpreted..but that interpretation is getting closer to the Letter of the Law...
Now Mr. Chou has a legit point......although I don't share the desire for a regulated industry ... right now .. china currently has a nitch for these kind of teachers and with more regulation .. in my opinion .... it will regulate the industry out of existence ...
Im not talking bout joint venture programs....they will always need lic. teacher to fulfill those rolls.. but the standard run of the mill, oral English Class...

Quote:
it was awfully friendly of
the police to suspend the three-year ban on condition of a suitable apology
for breaking the law..


The self criticism letter, been the saving grace of many......
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Babala



Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Those of us who work legally know this. It's only the people who come here without any qualifications who don't.
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Simon in Suzhou



Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 394
Location: GZ

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer the OP, I don't know a single person that has been deported, because everyone I know and hang out with is here on a legitimate visa and qualified for that visa under the law.

I absolutely disagree with nobillyno. A "regulated" industry where the work visa laws are enforced will not kill the industry. It will hopefully kill many of the shady private language mills. No big loss.
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likwid_777



Joined: 04 Nov 2012
Posts: 411
Location: NA

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't deported, I was "requested to leave within 10 days". I have been led to understand that these are not entirely the same thing. I was not jailed or marched to the airport in handcuffs, I was given the opportunity to leave of my own accord. This was in 2010. Good, because I guess that any ban should have lapsed by now, in my case. Even a if a five year ban was imposed, it will be up before too long. Time flies. That's if there even was one a ban to begin with. There may not have been, I have not yet tried to go back, so I don't know. Though I will, who knows how soon. Going to be great, will have a degree, be less naive, and maybe land myself a nice, low stress university gig with a level of autonomy, and only "adult" students.

And yes, the problem was, employer said to come over on L visa and would convert it to proper one. I was naive and believed it. Ended up converting, but only to business visa.
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A "regulated" industry where the work visa laws are enforced will not kill the industry. It will hopefully kill many of the shady private language mills. No big loss.



Simon in Suzhou, regulating this industry could close companies costing jobs and not all of them are shady....plus government should be there to keep the industry safe but streamlined to the point to where it doesn't inhibit in any way the FT's ability to choose for themselves what they will do.
Many times regulation causes as many problems as no-regulation as certain inequities are created by the government especially favoring the bigger or financially fat of the industry. I for one do not need government looking out for me, preferring to make up my own mind as to what is acceptable in business. For example the finance sector is the most heavily regulated part of the American economy but that didn't stop stupendously huge debts from drowning many folk who just lined up to take advantage of deregulated loans.

The PRC is meant to be the home of laissez-faire.....regulations are not hubris.....also if the Chinese gov set forth and polices these regulations it could create a huge incentive for economically fat schools to push for special favors.
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Simon in Suzhou



Joined: 09 Aug 2011
Posts: 394
Location: GZ

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NoBillyNO wrote:
Quote:
A "regulated" industry where the work visa laws are enforced will not kill the industry. It will hopefully kill many of the shady private language mills. No big loss.



Simon in Suzhou, regulating this industry could close companies costing jobs and not all of them are shady....plus government should be there to keep the industry safe but streamlined to the point to where it doesn't inhibit in any way the FT's ability to choose for themselves what they will do.
Many times regulation causes as many problems as no-regulation as certain inequities are created by the government especially favoring the bigger or financially fat of the industry. I for one do not need government looking out for me, preferring to make up my own mind as to what is acceptable in business. For example the finance sector is the most heavily regulated part of the American economy but that didn't stop stupendously huge debts from drowning many folk who just lined up to take advantage of deregulated loans.

The PRC is meant to be the home of laissez-faire.....regulations are not hubris.....also if the Chinese gov set forth and polices these regulations it could create a huge incentive for economically fat schools to push for special favors.


Interesting how you have decided what the PRC is or isn't meant to be. Seems like that's really not your role. As far as your example of the financial sector being "the most heavily regulated part of the American economy,' that is simply ridiculous. The banking crisis that took place was precisely because the banking lobby spent about a decade getting their sector DE-REGULATED to the point to where they could give high-risk loans to nearly anyone and then GAMBLE on whether those loans would fail or not, thus insuring themselves a massive windfall. Those exact loans you are describing were ILLEGAL 20 years ago when that sector really was regulated. It was not regulation that caused those problems. Do some homework instead of listening to the PR firms of the banking sector.

Sorry, the ONLY thing this crackdown is stopping is "teachers" who don't have the most minimal educational requirements in order to get a proper work visa, and thus the companies who prefer to get backpackers or Czech nationals who tell their students they are American or British teachers! The parents paying for this "business model" are certainly not being told the truth!

After spending 6 years studying and over $70,000 for my qualifications, I have no problem with the rabble who bought their degrees on a side street in Thailand for 50 bucks being thrown out. Boo hoo.
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The_Kong



Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon in Suzhou wrote:
NoBillyNO wrote:
Quote:
A "regulated" industry where the work visa laws are enforced will not kill the industry. It will hopefully kill many of the shady private language mills. No big loss.



Simon in Suzhou, regulating this industry could close companies costing jobs and not all of them are shady....plus government should be there to keep the industry safe but streamlined to the point to where it doesn't inhibit in any way the FT's ability to choose for themselves what they will do.
Many times regulation causes as many problems as no-regulation as certain inequities are created by the government especially favoring the bigger or financially fat of the industry. I for one do not need government looking out for me, preferring to make up my own mind as to what is acceptable in business. For example the finance sector is the most heavily regulated part of the American economy but that didn't stop stupendously huge debts from drowning many folk who just lined up to take advantage of deregulated loans.

The PRC is meant to be the home of laissez-faire.....regulations are not hubris.....also if the Chinese gov set forth and polices these regulations it could create a huge incentive for economically fat schools to push for special favors.


Interesting how you have decided what the PRC is or isn't meant to be. Seems like that's really not your role. As far as your example of the financial sector being "the most heavily regulated part of the American economy,' that is simply ridiculous. The banking crisis that took place was precisely because the banking lobby spent about a decade getting their sector DE-REGULATED to the point to where they could give high-risk loans to nearly anyone and then GAMBLE on whether those loans would fail or not, thus insuring themselves a massive windfall. Those exact loans you are describing were ILLEGAL 20 years ago when that sector really was regulated. It was not regulation that caused those problems. Do some homework instead of listening to the PR firms of the banking sector.

Sorry, the ONLY thing this crackdown is stopping is "teachers" who don't have the most minimal educational requirements in order to get a proper work visa, and thus the companies who prefer to get backpackers or Czech nationals who tell their students they are American or British teachers! The parents paying for this "business model" are certainly not being told the truth!

After spending 6 years studying and over $70,000 for my qualifications, I have no problem with the rabble who bought their degrees on a side street in Thailand for 50 bucks being thrown out. Boo hoo.


Couldn't agree more Simon.

Well said Cool
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Javelin of Radiance



Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NoBillyNO wrote:
Quote:
A "regulated" industry where the work visa laws are enforced will not kill the industry. It will hopefully kill many of the shady private language mills. No big loss.

Simon in Suzhou, regulating this industry could close companies costing jobs and not all of them are shady....plus government should be there to keep the industry safe but streamlined to the point to where it doesn't inhibit in any way the FT's ability to choose for themselves what they will do.
Many times regulation causes as many problems as no-regulation as certain inequities are created by the government especially favoring the bigger or financially fat of the industry. I for one do not need government looking out for me, preferring to make up my own mind as to what is acceptable in business. For example the finance sector is the most heavily regulated part of the American economy but that didn't stop stupendously huge debts from drowning many folk who just lined up to take advantage of deregulated loans.

The PRC is meant to be the home of laissez-faire.....regulations are not hubris.....also if the Chinese gov set forth and polices these regulations it could create a huge incentive for economically fat schools to push for special favors.

This post sounds like it came right out of the TeaBag Party book of disastrous economic policies.

More regulation and better enforcement of such helps both legitimate businesses and qualified potential employees. The only people hurt by it are those that shouldn't be in the business to begin with.
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Mr. English



Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 298
Location: Nakuru, Kenya

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect many of the preachers on this site who have Z visas also take side jobs including private students, which is of course illegal. Seems some people have an entitlement and others don't. I have worked on the side for a few small local mills over the years and, from what I hear of places like First, Wall, and Main, the better local mills are better than the big international ones. As to my primary business, private tutoring, I work mostly with adults, typically lawyers and executive types; they pay top dollar and wouldn't put up with "backpackers or Czech nationals who tell their students they are American or British teachers", probably wouldn't put up with many Z visa holders either!

And on this edit I add: There is strong demand for private tutors in China. There are two ways for people who want to make it their primary source of income to provide this service:
1) Do it on an M visa
2) Set up a legal company and then hire yourself (the company of course being authorized to issue Z visa). The problem with this second route is that setting up a company involves significant expense both in funds and red tape, and taxes must be paid, and all of this drives up costs significantly, and one must pass these costs on to the students. At that point, no matter how good you are, it is difficult to compete with illegally moonlighting Z visa holders who are willing to work for ridiculously low rates.


Last edited by Mr. English on Mon May 19, 2014 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Banner41



Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you possibly link the story where all these teachers are being rounded up in Beijing?

All I can find is Russian and Ukranian models being rounded up. That frankly sounds fun!

"I heard _____" Doesn't inspire confidence in reliable news worth material.

I also am on the side of it being great news if it's true. Getting rid of the riff raff will only increase demand for the rest of us here on legit paperwork. I welcome the crackdown (Again, if it is indeed actually true).
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NoBillyNO



Joined: 11 Jun 2012
Posts: 1762

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you possibly link the story where all these teachers are being rounded up in Beijing?


Not aware of any story.... I do personally know of a business man working on a marriage visa.. but not school related... he is in heaps of trouble ... but knowing him .. perhaps fraud may have come into play

Quote:
Getting rid of the riff raff will only increase demand for the rest of us here on legit paperwork.


Have to remember, these regulations are aimed at work units and not teachers...this may only serve to reducing the amount of companies to work for ... FT's showing up with paperwork .. real or false will not be vetted and therefore the new attention to any regulation will not weed out the false diplomas... or the riff raft... and remember the riff raff classification could be awarded to anyone, even those who participate on these boards.... in fact.. if we all knew each other. I am sure that one jaundiced eye would gaze towards another with an opinion of "Riff Raff" which would be highly judgmental unless your referring to Horst Simco or the Rocky Horror....
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RWA1981



Joined: 27 Mar 2014
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:03 am    Post subject: Deportation of China Foreign Teachers Reply with quote

My concern is selective enforcement of the law. Let's say a principal who hired you on an L visa owes you a bunch of back pay or overtime and knows when your visa expires. She can get away with not paying you and if you protest, call the cops and get you deported.

Also for NoBillyNo: One of the teachers that was deported was my neighbor and his Chinese GF spent almost an hour begging the PSB guys to give he BF another chance because he just got a scholarship to attend BFSU but those guys were cold-blooded and told her that they are no longer allowed to make any exceptions. She even offered the guy $1,000 and he didn't care. It was this PSB lieutenant that told her they deported over 400 teachers since last July and fined over a thousand.

The couple is devastated and they would not even let him stay in China long enough to get married. That 3 year reentry ban was the killer because her chances of getting a marriage visa are not very good with him not in the country any more.

I think the key if caught is to be super remorseful and write that apology letter they want. I wonder what they do with those letters anyway?
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Javelin of Radiance



Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1187
Location: The West

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're foolish enough to work on a tourist visa in a foreign country you can expect all kinds of things to go wrong (not getting paid might be the least of your worries). The simple answer is get a work visa and the chances of getting screwed go down dramatically.
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