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Master Shake
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA
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 Posted: Thu May 01, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: Down a well-trodden path... |
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We've been down this road many times before, but for old time's sake:
As an experienced teacher in Warsaw, you can earn well over 5k a month gross. There are lots of opportunities to earn more which only reveal themselves once you've been here for a year or so (better paying schools, clients, etc.).
If you're earning more and living cheaply (as we both agree is possible), you can comfortably save for weddings, apartments, etc.
So your argument that Poland is only for a) cheap thrills for young guys or b) retired pensioners doesn't hold water. Most teachers I work with are family men who have been Poland for ages and many of them support a wife and kids on their salary.
As for Poland becoming more and more competitive, maybe this is true for minimally qualified/experienced teachers, but having lived here for 4+ years I can say that competent, experienced, qualified native speaker teachers are still very much in demand.
I'll be very curious to see how far my salary in Japan goes compared to what I was making in Poland. I predict that it's actually possible to save more teaching in Warsaw. Stay tuned... |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 9:05 am Post subject: yep |
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| In Warsaw sure but the vast majority don't work in Warsaw. |
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ecocks
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 899
Location: Gdansk, Poland
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2014 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: Down a well-trodden path... |
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| Master Shake wrote: |
We've been down this road many times before, but for old time's sake:
As an experienced teacher in Warsaw, you can earn well over 5k a month gross. There are lots of opportunities to earn more which only reveal themselves once you've been here for a year or so (better paying schools, clients, etc.).
If you're earning more and living cheaply (as we both agree is possible), you can comfortably save for weddings, apartments, etc.
So your argument that Poland is only for a) cheap thrills for young guys or b) retired pensioners doesn't hold water. Most teachers I work with are family men who have been Poland for ages and many of them support a wife and kids on their salary.
As for Poland becoming more and more competitive, maybe this is true for minimally qualified/experienced teachers, but having lived here for 4+ years I can say that competent, experienced, qualified native speaker teachers are still very much in demand.
I'll be very curious to see how far my salary in Japan goes compared to what I was making in Poland. I predict that it's actually possible to save more teaching in Warsaw. Stay tuned... |
5,000/mo. was no problem up in Gdansk either. |
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Master Shake
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 8:51 am Post subject: Re: yep |
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| dragonpiwo wrote: |
| In Warsaw sure but the vast majority don't work in Warsaw. |
It's definitely easier to make a good living in Warsaw, but that doesn't mean it's impossible in other cities.
Delph's got a great job in Poznan, Scottie and ecocks are/were doing fine in Gdansk.
The cost of living is cheaper in other cities so 5,000zl/mo. will go a lot further outside of Warsaw. I can't imagine not being able to save on 5k in Gdansk. |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 9:43 am Post subject: yeah |
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Sure, for a single guy 'nay bother' as Delph might say. Ecocks and Scottie had other careers, savings and I think Scottie may even have some sort of pension! Their kids are grown up too. Not typical at all.
Poland's got a lot better in many ways (especially the burgers) but it gets hard when the big things in life come up and then you have kids.
I'd hazard a guess that a few of the guys who bought flats etc got some help from home. It's damn hard to save 60-100k Zl for a flat deposit on TEFL wages, even if you work every hour that god sends.
I know most of the TEFL teachers in Poznan and none of them make the figures Delph bandies about. |
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delphian-domine
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| 2-Rents vary. In Poznan, a small flat costs around the 1,500Zl/month mark plus bills. |
My friend just moved into a flat with a river view, 5 minutes drive from the centre for 2200zl a month all inclusive, including unlimited use of the swimming pool in the building. Rents are there to be negotiated, and there are some killer deals available. The apartment is about 50sqm, fully furnished and equipped. Oh, and there's an underground parking space included.
For a working couple in decent jobs, 2200zl is nothing.
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| 2-Hotels aren't that cheap, even using Groupon our break by the seaside last week cost 1,200 Zl for 3 nights plus the petrol and what we spent there. |
I booked an apartment for a shade over 1200zl for 11 nights by the Croatian seaside in August. Why would anyone waste their time going to the Polish seaside? Flights to Dubrovnik from Poznan are a mere 330zl each way, too.
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4-Medicines and medical treatment aren't cheap. |
Depends on your level of Polish. Those requiring the full English speaking expat service will pay through the nose, but those able to function in Polish can visit a professor of medicine in his private clinic for less than 100zl for a consultation.
Like in most countries, if you can speak the language, then you soon see the real cost of living.
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| Most people earn say 60k a year PLN, some more some less but it's a ball park figure. If you want to put 20% down on a flat you'll need 60k plus transactions costs and tax on a small one outside Warsaw. |
That 300k can buy you a house in most of Poland.
http://otodom.pl/dom-szeregowy-118m2-id26865541.html
Dunno about you, but a 118sqm house in Mosina for less than 300k seems quite fair to me. For those unaware, Mosina is about a 25-30 minute drive into the city centre, so nothing abnormal by European standards.
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| If you want to get married, the dress will cost you 5k, the food 2-300/head, then the booze, photographer, flowers, car, suit and so on. It's really hard to pay for that kind of stuff when you're making 5k a month gross. These are just examples, I haven't even touched parenting costs. |
My wife's dress cost half that, and that was from some wedding dress shop in the centre. A friend had a really beautiful wedding dress made for her for less than 1500zl, too. 5k for a dress? Only if you're marrying a princess who wants to look worse than the average Ukrainian bride.
As for the other costs, you can pay as much or as little as you want. If you have to throw cash around to prove your self worth, then yes, you'll spend 300zl a go. But I know plenty of people who did it for less and their weddings looked perfectly good.
Let's not forget that in Poland, men and women are equals and they tend to both work, so we should talk about earning 10k a month.
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| There's also a lot more competition around these days from native speakers and excellent Polish teachers. |
That's true. The native speakers in Poznan who have been here forever are starting to realise that a BA and CELTA just doesn't cut it when it comes to getting good jobs.
| Master Shake wrote: |
| ]As an experienced teacher in Warsaw, you can earn well over 5k a month gross. There are lots of opportunities to earn more which only reveal themselves once you've been here for a year or so (better paying schools, clients, etc.). |
Exactly. Anyone with an ounce of sense (and the sense to indulge in as much CPD as possible) can see this. Dragonpiwo is looking at it through the eyes of people who can't be arsed to do it properly for whatever reason.
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| Most teachers I work with are family men who have been Poland for ages and many of them support a wife and kids on their salary. |
I think the crucial difference is that they are serious about what they do and don't spend their evenings drinking themselves daft.
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| I'd hazard a guess that a few of the guys who bought flats etc got some help from home. It's damn hard to save 60-100k Zl for a flat deposit on TEFL wages, even if you work every hour that god sends. |
Why? It's not difficult to buy a place here. Using the place above in Mosnia above, it would need a 27.5k deposit. A year of saving 2500zl a month (which is not that much for a couple) and you've got your deposit.
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| I know most of the TEFL teachers in Poznan and none of them make the figures Delph bandies about. |
You only know a few of them, and I know them too. Most of them are unfortunately quite keen on the pub. Don't forget that most of them don't have anything other than a BA and CELTA, and many of them have incredibly poor Polish skills.
I find it shocking that people can be here for years and yet they can't communicate with clients in their native language. |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: erm |
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1-I had a flat in the very same building 'Pelikan' in Rataja. Nice place but no good if you've got a kid. I moved out a year ago.
2-Medicines? Well, they cost double what I pay elsewhere for them. It's got sweet fa to do with Polish skills.
3-I love the Polish seaside but it is costly.
4-I can think of quite a few TEFL teachers who have been there ages and who also happen to speak Polish fluently and they ain't coining it in.
5-I'm looking at houses right now and there's nothing that I'd live in for under 500,000Zl and that's for the terraced places in Swarzedz.
6-Wedding dress? Princess? I don't think so, we just like the dress and it's from a normal wedding shop on Dabrowskiego. I got my suit in Cybina for 2200Zl. My son's was 1000Zl and that was with a 50% rabat (and he bought it with his Polish mum).
I just like normal stuff...nothing about being flash. |
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scottie1113
Joined: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 375
Location: Gdansk
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: yeah |
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[quote="dragonpiwo"]Sure, for a single guy 'nay bother' as Delph might say. Ecocks and Scottie had other careers, savings and I think Scottie may even have some sort of pension! Their kids are grown up too. Not typical at all.
Not exactly. When I landed in Warsaw 6 1/2 years ago I had $500 in my pocket. No other savings. I had already paid for my CELTA course and my flat in Warsaw but that was it. I managed until I moved to Gdansk and got my job at the school you love to hate, where I still work.
True, I have a small pension now, but I didn't start receiving it until December 2013. For the first 6+ years, I did what most of you have done. I supplemented my income through various means-private lessons, proofreading, voice-overs-all unsolicited. I don't advertise. I also rented out the spare room (big) in my flat.
I did this without, as Delph would say, bettering myself. I just figured out how bring in some extra cash and I did it.
In that respect, my first 6+ years were very typical regardless of age. |
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delphian-domine
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2014 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| dragonpiwo wrote: |
| 1-I had a flat in the very same building 'Pelikan' in Rataja. Nice place but no good if you've got a kid. I moved out a year ago. |
I saw plenty of kids there yesterday, seemed to be working just fine for them. Not a bad building, I must say - and 2200zl a month all in seems to be a very fair price. A professional couple working in Poland would have no problem with such a place.
But like all things in Poland, you need to be able to negotiate. The flat was originally listed for more than 3000zl, but only a mug would pay that.
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| 2-Medicines? Well, they cost double what I pay elsewhere for them. It's got sweet fa to do with Polish skills. |
You do realise that prices for many medicines aren't controlled by the State?
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| -I love the Polish seaside but it is costly. |
It's rubbish. The weather is unpredictable, the roads there aren't great and for the money you spend there, you can go elsewhere. It's a place for dinosaurs, nothing else.
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| 4-I can think of quite a few TEFL teachers who have been there ages and who also happen to speak Polish fluently and they ain't coining it in. |
Then they haven't got a clue what they're doing, because if they speak Polish fluently, they should be doing far better for themselves. If I spoke Polish fluently, I'd probably get 25% on top of my salary overnight, if not more.
Incidentally, I can only think of two guys who are fluent, and neither has done badly for themselves.
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| 5-I'm looking at houses right now and there's nothing that I'd live in for under 500,000Zl and that's for the terraced places in Swarzedz. |
Again, you don't seem to understand Polish culture. The price listed is always the highest possible price, especially if agents are involved. The real selling price will always be dramatically lower.
Anyway, I've just shown you a perfectly decent house and size by Polish standards. It's not normal in Poland, or much of Europe to live in a large detached house with a big garden, which is what 500k buys you.
(Swarzedz? I wouldn't live there if you paid me, the local schools are diabolical, the city is badly run and we don't talk about the gypsies that run that place...)
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| 6-Wedding dress? Princess? I don't think so, we just like the dress and it's from a normal wedding shop on Dabrowskiego. I got my suit in Cybina for 2200Zl. My son's was 1000Zl and that was with a 50% rabat (and he bought it with his Polish mum). |
Did you buy without even negotiating? Again, like always - everything in Poland can be negotiated. 5000zl dress? I'd be looking at 20% off list price as a minimum.
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| I just like normal stuff...nothing about being flash. |
Not really. You've made it pretty clear time and time again that your definition of normal is way out of sync with what actually is normal in Europe. |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:56 am Post subject: Delph |
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You seem to think that you are the only person in the world who has thought of haggling. My fiancée (Masters from the Academy of Economics/ HR Manager) is obviously a thicko as am I, the guy who paid 1,300Zl for his flat in Pelikan+bills, which came to about 1900Zl/ month. The kids will be in the 85m and 103m flats unless the professional couple want to put a sofa bed in the lounge/diner. Those flats go for about 3000 a month, the ads are in the lobby.
With a missus who works the other side of Wresnia, Mosina would be daft. We also have family in Bogucin. We're fine where we are thanks. Maybe now you'll find a cheap place in Slupca and bandy that about.
Re the Polish seaside? Yep it's costly but the Marine Hotel in the Kolobrzeg is very nice and I heartily recommend the rooms with a mezzanine. The weather was lovely as it was in Sopot last year. Off to Bali next month, which no doubt you'll tell me is tosh.
Poland is what it is but is much better if you have real money and don't have the stress of the grind. |
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delphian-domine
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| You seem to think that you are the only person in the world who has thought of haggling. My fiancée (Masters from the Academy of Economics/ HR Manager) is obviously a thicko as am I, the guy who paid 1,300Zl for his flat in Pelikan+bills, which came to about 1900Zl/ month. The kids will be in the 85m and 103m flats unless the professional couple want to put a sofa bed in the lounge/diner. Those flats go for about 3000 a month, the ads are in the lobby. [ |
And who takes a flat at the first price offered? Ads in Poland are always on the high side, it's almost expected that you'll ask for a big discount on it. That 3000zl becomes 2500zl all inclusive.
Don't forget that professional couples tend to earn professional salaries with professional contracts. Someone that comes to Poland and chooses to work 24 hours a week on umowa o dzielo won't be earning that kind of cash, and nor should they. But 3000zl a month for a teacher who understands where the high paying clients are and who has a wife that also works for a living in a professional capacity is nothing.
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| With a missus who works the other side of Wresnia, Mosina would be daft. We also have family in Bogucin. We're fine where we are thanks. Maybe now you'll find a cheap place in Slupca and bandy that about. |
I dunno about "fine where you are", given that you openly admit that you have to live in an unstable dump of a country in order to survive. Meanwhile, several of us on here have done well for ourselves by living in Poland.
http://otodom.pl/dom-kostrzyn-kostrzyn-103,30m2-4-pokoje-293000-pln-id23646870.html
293,000zl for a 3 bedroom house in Kostrzyn. Not bad at all.
Sorry, but it all goes back to the same thing - you find Poland expensive because you want to buy the best of everything. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't go around claiming that Poland is expensive because someone who works on umowa o dzielo for Empik can't afford it.
Quite frankly, anyone who has been in Poland "for years" and speaks Polish to even an intermediate standard should be ashamed of themselves for not moving either upwards or into the corporate world. It's not difficult, but it certainly involves staying out of the pub. |
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delphian-domine
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Right, let's do some real mathematics.
A 3 bedroom house in Kostrzyn with a garden. Kostrzyn is about 30 minutes from Poznan, with good train connections.
Cost of property - 300,000zl.
Deposit - 10% - 30,000zl.
Loan - 90% - 270,000zl.
Interest rates are sitting around around 2.7% for most mortgage clients right now. The margin the bank applies is around 1.5% for a good deal, so that gives us 4.2%. Monthly payments are a mere 1500zl a month on such a property over 25 years.
Sorry, but all these claims about Poland being unaffordable are all based upon fiction. |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:11 pm Post subject: erm |
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Your real mathematics should start at 371,000 as the ad says for a turnkey version. And we don't want to live in Kostrzyn anyways. Swarzedz suits us just fine being a mere 36Zl in a taxi after a night out and just 5 minutes from the missus' sister and two of my best pals. Have you been to Kostrzyn lately? It's cheap cos no-one wants to live there.
How many kids have you got? Add 600zl school fees to your rent, annual school camps, your kid's clothes, medicines, books etc. Then factor in that your missus may well stop working for a while on a much reduced salary. Add having to upscale in your property and maybe run 2 cars. Then you are getting nearer what life costs there for a youngish bloke starting a family. God forbid you get divorced but if you do, you'll pay more in child support than your mortgage costs. Kids' toys cost more in Poland as do clothes viz a viz the UK and that I know for sure. Down the road you'll be buying them laptops and I-phones, which ain't cheap either.
Your outlook is simplistic and reflects that of someone with no family yet.
I've never said Poland isn't do-able just it's much more so as a person with no family/a grown up family.
Then there's the question of what happens if you get sick or old or whatever, which is a long-term question.
I'm where I am because I've thought of such things. Kicking back on the beach for most of the year suits me fine.
My wedding in a few weeks time won't even dent my savings. |
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delphian-domine
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Your real mathematics should start at 371,000 as the ad says for a turnkey version. And we don't want to live in Kostrzyn anyways. Swarzedz suits us just fine being a mere 36Zl in a taxi after a night out and just 5 minutes from the missus' sister and two of my best pals. Have you been to Kostrzyn lately? It's cheap cos no-one wants to live there. |
Nothing wrong with Kostrzyn, and everyone knows that you can easily knock 20% off the price online if you've got the funds ready and waiting. I'm in discussions to buy a second property right now, and I've found that plenty of investors are willing to talk even if you make it clear that you expect a substantial discount. The best so far has been a massive 30% off the listing price, which shows the real state of the market.
Yet again though, you show that you can't keep away from the alcohol. It's not a normal situation for normal Polish families - which is why your attempts to describe Polish life fail miserably. It would rather be normal for one of them to drive home, and for nights out to be spent with family rather than in the pub.
What you forget is that Kostrzyn, Mosina, all those towns are dormitory towns in line with the way that Polish people live. They don't need facilities over and beyond the basics because there's simply no point - everyone goes to Poznan for what they need.
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| How many kids have you got? Add 600zl school fees to your rent, annual school camps, your kid's clothes, medicines, books etc. |
School fees? Most private schools in Poland are utter crap, and once you get beyond the primary level, only miserable failures who couldn't hack it in public schools go there. Certainly in Poznan, the best gimnazjums and high schools are public. There's a reason why you don't tend to see many privately educated kids in the 1st and 2nd High School in Poznan, which offers a far superior education.
School camps? There are many camps available to suit all budgets. But not going to a camp is hardly going to kill a child - and knowing a thing or two about how summer camps run in Poland, you'd have to be a maniac to send your child to one in the first place. Child protection isn't exactly a priority in this country...
Books? As of this year, books for the 1st class kids will be free. Next year, 1st and 2nd class will be free. And so on.
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| Then factor in that your missus may well stop working for a while on a much reduced salary. |
Mine will be on at least 5800zl a month during maternity leave as a result of being self employed. No problem there, and those professional women working in good jobs will earn 80% of their salary anyway. Remember, some women don't dream about going off on maternity leave and doing nothing for nearly 2 years.
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| Add having to upscale in your property and maybe run 2 cars. Then you are getting nearer what life costs there for a youngish bloke starting a family. |
If I upscaled now, I'd be looking at paying around 1500zl a month maximum for a mortgage. Not exactly a dealbreaker. 2 cars? What for? I live close to work and also close to public transport - no need to run two cars. If I need to do anything with work, I can use a company car.
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| God forbid you get divorced but if you do, you'll pay more in child support than your mortgage costs. |
A non-issue and entirely hypothetical.
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| Down the road you'll be buying them laptops and I-phones, which ain't cheap either. |
It's not exactly normal in Poland for kids to have iPhones.
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| Your outlook is simplistic and reflects that of someone with no family yet. |
My outlook is based on how people really live in Poland. Trying to claim that school fees and iPhones are normal is so way off the mark that it's not even funny. Anyone that actually lives in Poland (as opposed to just dropping in for 3 weeks at a time on the lash) knows that.
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| Then there's the question of what happens if you get sick or old or whatever, which is a long-term question. |
If you get sick, then the Polish culture dictates that the family takes care of you. Old? Likewise.
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I'm where I am because I've thought of such things. Kicking back on the beach for most of the year suits me fine. |
You mean 'flying to a god-awful place where you aren't safe at all' suits you fine?
I really don't know why you keep trying to push that you're happy with your lot. If you were, you wouldn't be constantly referring to money. What's it like spending Christmas away from your family? What about the fact that when you get on that plane, there's a real chance that you'll get into trouble over there?
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| My wedding in a few weeks time won't even dent my savings. |
Savings are pretty meaningless if you have to earn the money in a pretty horrible environment where your personal safety isn't guaranteed in the slightest.
But hey, while you're locked up among men, we'll get on with it  |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: yadayada |
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The road to the Middle East is well trodden by Polish veterans with families and there's good reason for it.
Unlike in the 90's, Poland's TEFL halcyon era when wages were great and it was cheap, I rarely drink these days, so your constant sniping about boozing is so way off the mark is risible. But hey, most of the young bucks do drink a fair bit in Poland. Polish culture is and always has been very tolerant of alcohol consumption and rightly so. Only a puritanical arse would think otherwise. For a young guy to go and work there and stay out of the pub...well....it just rarely happens. In fact, the guys I know well, some of whom you claim to 'know', drink in moderation these days and are rarely out. None of them have saved bundles by staying in a lot more. Most have second 'careers' too, so they are not the slackers you often label them as being.
You may well be happy living in the sticks in a house in need of a remont, watching your missus struggle in the snow on public transport but I'm not. And my son's fee paying school is excellent thanks. Moreover the other kids are all of the same ilk. What parent wouldn't want to send their teenage son on sailing camps and windsurfing camps? He loves them and it's healthy. It also gives me and the missus quality time. Everyone wins.
Doing what I do means we have far more options and a much healthier long-term financial situation. Can't knock that....well you could I suppose.
As for the place I work? I'm currently in the swim-training season and the beach nearby is the the most pristine I've ever seen anywhere. The complex we are on is huge and the BBQs we have involve a mixed crowd, so your comments are way off the mark. However, being a know-it-all, you'll tell me otherwise. It's not for the lilly-livered that's for sure. but when it's your time, it's your time.
Check out my wedding venue 'Hotelarnia' -lovely place, lovely food (we've eaten there several times) and the rooms are great. Don't expect an invite as the last thing we need is someone with OCD pitching up. |
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