Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The JIS Debacle and Criminal Record Checks
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Indonesia
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems the deportations are starting as soon as this Friday. It is disgraceful that expat teachers are being treated this way. They had KITASes (work visas) but they are being forced out on a technicality. The story has gone international again. This report comes from Singapore-based Channel News Asia:

Sumadi said 11 of the teachers would be deported on Friday and the others later.

"They have misused their residence permits by declaring a profession different from the scope of their job at the school," he said.

He said the teachers being deported are nine Americans, two Australians, two Canadians, a New Zealander, a Singaporean, a Taiwanese, a Briton, a South African, an Indian and a Turk.

Of those investigated, one had been cleared of breaking immigration rules while five others were still being probed, he said.


http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/indonesia-to-deport/1136430.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: JIS Scandal in perspective Reply with quote

Considering the fact that terrible things were exposed at one of Indonesia's more elite international schools, no one expects the government and immigration departments to do nothing,.

It will only mean a review of immigration laws, as it happened in Thailand, after a similar case, and sadly some teachers in Indonesia, could be adversely affected in the short term. as well as schools that specialize in teaching children or outsource teachers to Government or National plus schools.

In the long run, Indonesia will still need language teachers, and the demand will continue, especially in International examination topics, and subjects needed to study overseas like IELTS, SAT and TOEFL iBT, which just means more specialized language teachers always are needed.

I don't think anyone should blame Indonesians, or the immigration department for reacting this way, and once the new visa rules have been changed, a teaching community will still thrive in Indonesia, just as they have in other Asian countries like China, Thailand and Vietnam, when the criteria for teachers also changed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: JIS Scandal in perspective Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
Considering the fact that terrible things were exposed at one of Indonesia's more elite international schools, no one expects the government and immigration departments to do nothing,.

It will only mean a review of immigration laws, as it happened in Thailand, after a similar case, and sadly some teachers in Indonesia, could be adversely affected in the short term. as well as schools that specialize in teaching children or outsource teachers to Government or National plus schools..


26 teachers deported from a single school? Does anyone think that is a proportionate response? The rape was done (as far as we know) by an Indonesian citizen but it is 26 teachers who have been expelled. Not one of these 26 expelled teachers was found to be a sexual offender.


This is another example of xenophobia from Indonesian authorities. One of their own is a heinous sex offender so we will publically humiliate 26 foreigners instead. Does anyone doubt this is anything but a vindictive payback against JIS because the offense happened there? Indonesia is using these 26 expat teachers as a scapegoat. In Indonesia they use the term "kambing hitam"- black goat. These people are the "kambing hitam" of the authorities.

Who issued the work visas of these people? Jakarta International School. Who filled in the forms? Jakarta International School. Who approved them? Immigration. Didn't those teachers have a right to presume that their KITAS which said "Elementary Teachers" entitled them to work as Kindergarten teachers?

These teachers did nothing wrong. Yet it just shows that in Indonesia if schools make mistakes, it is the teachers who are deported and the school which is allowed to stay in business. This is how it always goes in Indonesia. This is not a "business as usual" situation. It reeks of injustice.

By this morning, these scapegoat teachers can read about themselves everywhere from the Straits Times to the Guardian. As other users have recently says, Indonesia seems intent on humiliating expat teachers.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/05/indonesia-to-deport-20-foreign-teachers-in-wake-of-claim-boy-abused-by-cleaners
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tazz



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 162
Location: Jakarta

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Scapegoats'-absolutely.....let's beat the monkey and ignore the organ grinder! "Of the 26 teachers we investigated, 20 had committed immigration violations and will be deported,"-senior immigration officer, as quoted in the Guardian. Who I ask was responsible for the whole process of obtaining documents-the school in liason with the Indonesian immigration and manpower departments, the poor bloody teachers only role in this process would have been to fly to Singapore, visit the Indonesian embassy to hand over money + documents, and subsequently, when directed by the school-go to their local immigration office in Jakarta for fingerprinting etc.....I remember being very surprised back in 2006 when it was pointed out to me that my kitas for the nat + school at which I was working-had me listed as a missionary not an English Teacher! I could have been deported for putting my trust/ faith in those that had hired me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thing is that Immigration were the ones who had told JIS not to worry about the discrepancy between "Elementary" and "Kindergarten" on the KITASes. Here is one remark from "Living in Indonesia Forum":

Of course, the school have spent years trying to remedy this situation, but have, until now, been told by Immigration basically not to worry about it.

Do you think other "International" school teachers should be worried as well?

I would lay a very big bet that teachers from other schools have checked their permits and gone quickly to their employer if they notice a mismatch.

However, unless an Indonesian kid is assaulted on their campus, they are probably pretty safe.


http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.org/showthread.php/43500-Is-this-for-real-Child-sexual-abuse-at-JIS/page185

Do you agree with the conclusion that other people with the wrong job on their KITAS need not worry unless an assault occurs at the school? There was some talk of raids at National Plus schools in Bogor.

Any other reports on how wide the crackdown / investigation is likely to be?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:49 am    Post subject: Effects of the JIS Scandal in Perspective Reply with quote

Actually, this "crackdown" only will be temporary, until the Indonesian authorities check the validity of the visas of teachers currently working in Indonesia.

I was actually surprised that given the extent of abuse at JIS, the authorities didn't react more harshly, and like I stated before the authorities have to act in order to ensure, this sick abuse won't occur again.

This is probably a nationwide check of visas and not a witch hunt, and once new visa regulations have been implemented teaching opportunities in Indonesia, will continue.

Try and put things in perspective. Yes, it is smart for teachers to check with their schools if their visa documents are in order, and I expect
the schools are already doing this.

Obviously, this will pass, and in a few years, the expatriate teaching community will still be needed in Indonesia, and there always be language schools that hire teachers like EF, Tbi, Wall Street and others, irrespective of the current situation.

The worse thing about the JIS scandal in my opinion is the actual fact that the abuse took place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:11 am    Post subject: Re: JIS Scandal in perspective Reply with quote

Quote:

These teachers did nothing wrong. Yet it just shows that in Indonesia if schools make mistakes, it is the teachers who are deported and the school which is allowed to stay in business. This is how it always goes in Indonesia. This is not a "business as usual" situation. It reeks of injustice.


Lets be honest, should we really judge the situation by an unknown person, who has seemed to spend a number of years on this forum posting negative opinions about Indonesia, and certain schools/individuals

I just hope this scandal is not being used to exonerate a personal campaign to obviously make people who visit this forum, think twice about applying for a job in Indonesia.

Send in your CV's to schools, talk to people who actually live and teach in Indonesia, and try to put a lot of the negativity on this forum in perspective, (Why spend years writing negative comments, when you don't even live in the country?)

You may have to wait until new immigration regulations are implemented, but a lot of schools now will ensure your paperwork for the visa is correct, and enjoy your stay in this unique country, once you start living here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: JIS Scandal in perspective Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
Quote:

These teachers did nothing wrong. Yet it just shows that in Indonesia if schools make mistakes, it is the teachers who are deported and the school which is allowed to stay in business. This is how it always goes in Indonesia. This is not a "business as usual" situation. It reeks of injustice.


Lets be honest, should we really judge the situation by an unknown person, who has seemed to spend a number of years on this forum posting negative opinions about Indonesia, and certain schools/individuals

I just hope this scandal is not being used to exonerate a personal campaign to obviously make people who visit this forum, think twice about applying for a job in Indonesia.


One could equally ask why you have popped up all over Dave's assuring people Indonesia is a safe place to work when 26 teachers just got deported. Are you some kind of recruiter who is finding it difficult to get enough expats when Indonesia is treating teachers so shabbily? You and your sidekick Jef Dam are always throwing bombs at anyone who mentions problems in Indonesian schools, even when it is reported in the press.

Also youare also factually incorrect. I have often recommended Wall Street Indonesia as an employer based on the fact that they have tried hard to be legal. So your assertion that I don't want people to come to Indonesia is false. I've actually offered advice to several people about decent job offers in Indonesia. I also steered a couple of people to Penabur over the past couple of years. But I have warned people about scam-prone schools like Rumah Bahasa and TBI.

My whole point is simply that I don't think that people should work in Indonesia illegally.If schools can get you a KITAS, well and good. Please enjoy your time in Indonesia. But when we have schools employing people on sosbuds, business consultant visas and even missionary visas (see Tazz's post), that is illegal. As the current JIS case shows, it is the teachers who suffer (not the schools) when things go wrong.

My advice to people who want to come to Indonesia is "play safe". Get a KITAS. It's the only legal option. If a school can't promise you a KITAS, there are other countries. Is reminding people of the dangers of working illegally likely to bother anyone legitimate?


Last edited by bradleycooper on Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:41 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Effects of the JIS Scandal in Perspective Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
Actually, this "crackdown" only will be temporary, until the Indonesian authorities check the validity of the visas of teachers currently working in Indonesia.

I was actually surprised that given the extent of abuse at JIS, the authorities didn't react more harshly, and like I stated before the authorities have to act in order to ensure, this sick abuse won't occur again.

This is probably a nationwide check of visas and not a witch hunt, and once new visa regulations have been implemented teaching opportunities in Indonesia, will continue...

The worse thing about the JIS scandal in my opinion is the actual fact that the abuse took place.


A few points here. First, the only actual abuse for which charges have been laid was done by Indonesian cleaners. The school did employ a known American pedophile back in the 1990s but he has no link to the current crimes. The current problem was due to cleaners. Therefore, it has no connection whatsoever with these 20 or 26 deported teachers. In fact, if the police did have a reason to suspect them, you'd think they wouldn't be deporting them. They should stay in Indonesia for questioning. Therefore, these people have been unfairly caught up in this mess. I doubt they would join Markustm in claiming that the Indonesian government had been fair to them.

Second, of course the fact that abuse occurred is the problem. No one ever disputed that. But the fact that the local press have been blaming the crimes on "evil Western influence" has turned it into a circus. Also the fact that the mother of the victim has hired a lawyer who is demanding $12 million. It has given the impression that the case is now largely about money. The local press has been having a field day with wild assertions and unsupported allegations. Journalistic standards have been at rock bottom.

Finally, it is the schools not the teachers who are most responsible for the wrong visas / wrong paperwork. As Tazz has said, all the teachers do is trust the teachers that the correct paperwork and permits will be obtained. However, if people think a Sosbud Visa (social and cultural visa) entitles you to work (one other user called "Memae" has recently been put on one) then they are in unwitting danger.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: JIS Debacle Reply with quote

I can agree that it is getting harder to obtain a working visa in Indonesia, but at the same time the majority of schools do hire teachers on a valid work permit, and will continue to do so, after te JIS scandal calms down.

I understand that you would like to give the impression that you are "helping" people on this forum, but take a good look at your comments, and ask yourself if you really believe you are "helping" people or deliberately putting them off from applying for work in Indonesia.

Is only suggesting Wall Street promotion, and is a one sided opinion, and could be considered in-direct promotion for one school, whilst you put other schools down. Are Wall street paying you?

We all know EF, Tbi and many other schools in Indonesia hire teachers on a work permit. Where is the news that teachers from these schools are being deported? I don't see any, so can we presume, after immigration checked these schools, the paperwork was in order?

Perhaps if you really want to help teachers then if the new Visa regulations stipulate they need a criminal background check, then find out how they can get one, so new job applicants to all English schools in Indonesia, can submit the correct paperwork to the schools.

By the way, the forum members were never told what Tbi School you managed and when? or if you currently live and work in Indonesia?

I feel this is important because much of your information is invalid, unless you can really fully confirm you are who you claim to be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: JIS Debacle Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
We all know ... Tbi and many other schools in Indonesia hire teachers on a work permit. Where is the news that teachers from these schools are being deported? [b]I don't see any, so can we presume, after immigration checked these schools, the paperwork was in order?


Do "we" know that? Where is your proof? When I worked at TBI there were plenty of teachers on illegal visas towards the end. That's why I left. Didn't want to lie to teachers that they were safe on VKU visas. It seems very obvious to me that this user's agenda is PR spokesman for this odd shcool chain.

Also, if you read my comments about the deportations and "witch hunt", you will see they were solely about International and National Plus schools. I never mentioned the language mills in the context of the raids. Can you please stay on topic? This is a thread about JIS. It was you Markustm who said Immigration had checked the language mills, not me. Show me where I mentioned that the language mills had been caught up in this? If you have information about checks on language schools, please offer it. But don't put words in my mouth.

As for which school I used to work at, I could ask you the same thing. You said on a thread a few days ago that you had just finished work for 4 years at TBI. Which branch was that and why did you finally leave? I presume your name isn't "Mark Kustom". It is poor etiquette to demand real names when no one else gives them. After I left TBI I received death threats for posting information about illegal work visas. I have good reason not to give my personal details.

So let's look to the future. You assure people that Indonesia will be back to normal after this. Perhaps you will be proven right. Maybe these deportations are the end of the story. If that's true, it will soon fizzle. And if the schools you name can get people KITASes, well and good. If abuse of sosbud, VKU and missionary visas stops, then I am sure you will agree that's a good thing. BUt look at recent comments from "Memae", "Tazz" and "Jaybets". I'm not the only one insisting that abuse of visas is going on.


Last edited by bradleycooper on Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:44 am; edited 8 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject: In reply- Who are you? Reply with quote

I think if you are unable to reveal if you currently live in Indonesia, and refuse to state which Tbi school you managed, and the time, then you are hiding something, because you have spent years giving "advice" on this forum, claiming this.

My theory is that if you can't reveal this information, then as stated before, you cannot be taken seriously on this forum, and either a paid troll by a school, a jealous ex-teacher who begrudges the fact that others are having a great life in Indonesia, and dislike the fact newcomers can also have this experience, or someone feeding off press reports and innuendo on forums, who has never set foot in Indonesia.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: JIS Debacle Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
At the same time the majority of schools do hire teachers on a valid work permit, and will continue to do so, after the JIS scandal calms down.


How can you possibly know that? You stated in a recent thread you were a TBI teacher who recently stopped working there. If you are not a manager at any school how can you know the details of the legality of the work permits at "the majority of schools" in Indonesia"?

Do you have access to the paperwork "at the majority of schools in Indonesia"? Are you really claiming TBI and its competitors all showed their visa processing paperwork to a mere teacher? That doesn't sound remotely believable. What makes sense is you a Senior Manager trying to calm anxious teachers down.

I understand this is a stressful time for school managers in Indonesia. The teachers must be getting very restless. But the best way for these schools to stop problems is to reform.If every teacher has the correct visa in a school and deportations still occur, you will find me denouncing Immigration not the rogue schools. (As I've done in the current case.) If the schools would stop using sosbuds, VKUS and missionary visas, all the teachers would feel safe (except in an extreme JIS-like case) and my warnings to get a KITAS would be zero threat to schools, as they would already be within the law.

Let me just be clear. I worked in Indonesia work years on a legal KITAS. Indonesia is a beautiful country with some wonderful places and people. However, I DO NOT advise anyone to work illegally in Indonesia. If you are caught, your school will get a slap on the wrist, you will be DEPORTED (which will stay in your passport) and it will be a very nasty experience. For example, you usually have to pay 1 years' rent up front in Indonesia. I doubt many people would be happy losing that.

Does Markustm honestly recommend working on anything but a KITAS? Can he honestly recommend doing 6 visa runs to Singapore a year on a VKU? I very much doubt it.


Last edited by bradleycooper on Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:29 pm; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: In reply- Who are you? Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
I think if you are unable to reveal if you currently live in Indonesia, and refuse to state which Tbi school you managed, and the time, then you are hiding something, because you have spent years giving "advice" on this forum, claiming this..


"Years" is it? Funny, because anyone can check the date I joined this forum. It was 2013. Look under my name! That's only 1 year. But don't let the truth get in the way of your hyperbole.

As for never having been to Indonesia, it's funny you say that because in a recent thread you claimed that I was a "former manager who had been forced out". What's the story here- have I never been to Indonesia or did I manage a school there?

But if we are playing silly guessing games, you are a Senior Manager who is finding recruitment a headache. Mungkin kita pernah ketemu, kan?

If there really is nothing to worry about, then relax. I don't see your competitors on here getting hot under the collar about a few comments on a forum.


Last edited by bradleycooper on Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 215

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tazz wrote:
'Scapegoats'-absolutely.....let's beat the monkey and ignore the organ grinder! "Of the 26 teachers we investigated, 20 had committed immigration violations and will be deported,"-senior immigration officer, as quoted in the Guardian. Who I ask was responsible for the whole process of obtaining documents-the school in liason with the Indonesian immigration and manpower departments, the poor bloody teachers only role in this process would have been to fly to Singapore, visit the Indonesian embassy to hand over money + documents, and subsequently, when directed by the school-go to their local immigration office in Jakarta for fingerprinting etc.....

I remember being very surprised back in 2006 when it was pointed out to me that my kitas for the nat + school at which I was working-had me listed as a missionary not an English Teacher! I could have been deported for putting my trust/ faith in those that had hired me.


Most people are trusting. That isn't a crime or weakness. It's a good trait. But it does pay to be cautious in the TEFL industry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Indonesia All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC