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Will salaries be increased as laws get more stringent?
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Flicka



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:57 pm    Post subject: Will salaries be increased as laws get more stringent? Reply with quote

If would-be ESL teachers are required to be more qualified than before, will rates of pay go up to reflect this, do we think? Or do they want more qualified teachers but give them the same rates as before?
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extradross



Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The regulations are determined by the education ministry 'DIKNAS'-they are not related to salaries at all. Salaries are not related to the educational/professional requirements to issue working visas...this is not Saudi Arabia.
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Pale



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that depends entirely on the will of the teachers. The language schools will always pay the lowest possible rate that the teacher is willing to accept.
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Durian Tango



Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Posts: 65
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think this rule only applies to language schools, but nearly any other business as well. A business will pay it's employees what they are willing to work for. In South America people are paid 100-200 dollars a month sometimes for teaching, but people take it because they want to work in South America so bad. A grocery store in any country will pay workers minimum wage because there are plenty that will work for that much.

Here in Indonesia, if a school offers 5 million rupiah a month and doesn't have any trouble staffing their school, then it seems like everyone is doing OK and there are no victimes - if people don't want to make 5 million then they don't have to work there and they are free to apply to a school that offers 9 million or 13 milion a month. If ALL schools are offering 5 million, then that's that, teachers have to decide if they want to work in a school/country for that much and if ultimately 5 million won't cut it, then perhaps another, better well paying country will be suitable.

Here in Indonesia there is a wide range of salaries and everyone is free to apply for any job they like. They may not qualify for all, and they may not pass the interview phase for a higher paying job, but that's not the school's fault, it's the applicant's fault for impressing the school or having the correct qualifications (by the school's or government's standards).

Ultimately I think the market will dictacte wages. We seem to see a range of 5 million to 15 million (generally speaking) per month across the country and across schools. I would say that it has edged up over the last couple of years but no giant spikes in salaries since the new regulations took hold. Obviously if schools can't get teachers at the salaries they are offering they will either end up shutting down or raising salaries.
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extradross



Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take it that the 5-15 mill applies to language schools cos Nat + [sorry International schools] are paying way in excess of that in many cases. It's interesting to me that the requirements of the language mills to employ 'suitably qualified people' isn't accompanied by any regulation of salaries ala Saudi Arabia and several other Middle Eastern countries where the salary that you receive is determined by the qualifications that you possess. For example a 'B.ed' will command that much more than....'but then we shouldn't really expect such regulation here where everything pay related seems to be a matter of negotiation.
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Zorobabel



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In regard to language schools, I think that, yes, salaries will have to increase. I make this assumption based on observations from my workplace as well as other ESL teachers I've talked to, as it seems that quite a few courses are having a hard time ensuring that they're fully staffed. I know a teacher who is making 19 million per month at a language school--quite substantial if you consider that in USD terms it's nearly $2200. So if you're actually qualified with a degree and TEFL certification, you should be able to fetch a decent salary, especially if you can negotiate the remuneration.

As for real schools, I don't have much experience in that field. I do have a friend who had a B.Ed and no experience and started out at $3000 a month at an international school in Jakarta. I can't imagine that having happened just a few years ago. Conversely, I know guys who are making 15-17 million at nat+ schools who have quite a few years of experience (though no certification) and are thus making less than teachers at the highest paid language schools.
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travelNteach



Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 222

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@zorobel: any chance u would be willing to name the language mill that is willing to pay 19 million? i might like to pick up some evening courses there.
i think salaries are pretty stagnant or even going down. the Bed regulation hasnt been enforced unilaterally, so i dont think many people are getting turned down because of that. if it does get strictly enforced, those of us that are qualified should be getting a big pay raise. but for the moment, there are so many people fleeing from the west that i think there is actually an oversupply of teachers in indo at the moment. i dont see nearly the number of advertisements that i used to see either in the paper or internet, with ef being the excepton of course.
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Zorobabel



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

travelNteach wrote:
@zorobel: any chance u would be willing to name the language mill that is willing to pay 19 million? i might like to pick up some evening courses there.
PM sent with details. The only course I know that hires people for part-time teaching is Direct English, however, since it is illegal in most cases.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zorobabel wrote:
travelNteach wrote:
@zorobel: any chance u would be willing to name the language mill that is willing to pay 19 million? i might like to pick up some evening courses there.
PM sent with details. The only course I know that hires people for part-time teaching is Direct English, however, since it is illegal in most cases.


They aren't the only ones who employ people on the sly. I know of one school that uses a couple of illegal teachers on Saturday mornings. They figure this is less risky because the Immigration Department don't work weekends and a raid is very unlikely on Saturdays. So far the plan has proven very effective over a number of years.

I haven't heard of any language academies that pay 19 million. Wall Street go as high as 17 million. I have never heard of them employing part-time workers though.
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princesss



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 123
Location: japan/indo/aust

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Direct English pay 200, 000 rp per hour for casual work. Their casual teachers complain about a lack of hours however, so business probably isn't booming.

I have known people who raked in quite decent amounts from freelancing in Jakarta too. There is a large untapped demand for classes in small companies. This is obviously not legal so discretion is the key.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Will salaries be increased as laws get more stringent? Reply with quote

Flicka wrote:
If would-be ESL teachers are required to be more qualified than before, will rates of pay go up to reflect this, do we think? Or do they want more qualified teachers but give them the same rates as before?


3 years on, the jury is in. They have gone up rather a lot at Wall Street (from around 12 million to as much as 17 million.) In the other schools, they have barely budged.

From an economics point of view, this appears to make no sense. After all, few people have a degree in English, English Lingusitics or a Master in TESOL. For instance, when I was recruiting in Indonesia in early 2012 I got over 50 CVs from a job ad but only 1 applicant had the right degree. That's 98% of applicants disqualified in 1 hit by DIKNAS! And the job ad specifically mentioned what the right degrees are.

In a normal job market, wages would have to spike, but they only have at Wall Street. This, of course, is because they are the only language school that rigorously complied with these qualifications. You can speculate how others have got around the rules, but Sosbud visas, work visas and of course "special connections" are part of the true story. Many schools also found that they could make do with less foreigners than in the past.

But, overall, the tighter regulations haven't caused an increase in salaries because companies have worked around the laws rather than complied with them. If you could have predicted that, join the crowd. Law enforcement is one of Indonesia's perennial problem area. But it does seem standards have risen a bit. There are much fewer teachers about now with no degree at all. Teachers without degrees were the norm a decade ago.
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markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject: Salaries and Fringe Benefits Reply with quote

The problem with just looking at salaries is the fact we ignore other extra benefits, which make up for a salary imbalance.

How much is free housing worth?
An extra few weeks paid holiday?
Extra spending money on your visa run to Singapore and a decent hotel? A good health Insurance?
Do you pay your own income tax or the School?
Work double shifts- mornings, and evenings?
Get time off/part-payment for a CELTA course during your contract?
A good end of the year bonus?

The fact that you have weekends free, which teachers at some EF branches, and Wall Street generally forfeit, can also justify the need for a higher salary than some other schools offer, for many teachers.

I have always personally believed, the fringe benefits a school offers, is often worth more than just considering an extra million or two a month, on a contract which offers no real opportunity to travel on weekends, or the need to pay more for things like lunch, and transport etc, because the school is an expensive area of the city.

And salaries are based on supply and demand. If regulations do tighten in Indonesia, than both basic salaries, and fringe benefits, should increase, as long as students are willing to pay more to study with an expatriate teacher, and their is a shortage of qualified teachers.


Last edited by markustm on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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plumpy nut



Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 702

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Will salaries be increased as laws get more stringent? Reply with quote

Flicka wrote:
will rates of pay go up to reflect this


What do you think? Laughing
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Salaries and Fringe Benefits Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
The fact that you have weekends free, which teachers at some EF branches and Wall Street generally forfeit, can also justify the need for a higher salary than some other schools offer, for many teachers.


Can't agree with this comment. The schools markustm names have a lot of advantages over the small "only in Indonesia" chains. Allow me to run through what I see as the main benefits.

1. Global Perspective

These large schools are established in at least 30 countries worldwide, so it is safe to assume they have learned a thing or two about education. They have a wealth of international experience on which to draw. Business wise, this is a big advantage as they can draw on ideas that have worked elsewhere.

2. Intellectual Property

These big companies designed their own curriculum. They either created books, software or both for all their courses. They have whole teams of people who develop materials. In contrast, the Indonesia-only chains will just order books off a catalogue such as Headway or Cutting Edge and use a cookie-cutter approach. No thought has been put into developing the curriculum at all; this is clearly a cheap and easy way to run a school, but it is far from ideal.

3. Career Building

Unless you plan to stay in Indonesia forever, there are advantages to working for a well-known name. You can transfer between countries, for example, or you can assume brand recognition when the name appears on your CV. Also, these big companies employ lots of expats in management, so there are opportunities for advancement.Some local schools are a dead-end in this respect.

4. Technological Innovation

This is simple. These two schools are developing a lot of online learning stuff, whereas no Indonesian school is up to date in terms of technological innovation. You still find many schools using white-boards and even CD players!

These big companies are far from perfect and they suit some people much more than others. But generally they could be judged a safer bet than the 'only in Indonesia' chains, which may be years behind the times.
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markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:47 am    Post subject: Fallacies about Global Brand Schools Reply with quote

Actually, before EF and Wall Street entered the market in Indonesia, the majority of teachers never worked weekends, and teaching salaries increased annually, by a reasonable amount.

A flip side to Global Brands is that they often offer lower salaries than their counterparts, and dominate markets stifling competition, and innovation, by creating monopolies. This is very evident in Europe, and the US.

Innovation comes from the smaller cutting edge companies, rather than large private monopolies that simply dominate a market, and become too big to fail organizations, which in education simply destroy innovation, and competition.

Working for these organizations doesn't enhance your employment prospects, it simply creates low- paid , MacDonald type jobs, rather than long =term career prospects, with very little emphasis on staff development, as they prefer to hire cheaply.

Stating that Indonesia is 'behind the times," in many schools is also a very one sided argument. Technology doesn't always transfer to better teaching techniques, as its the teacher- student- school relationship that can make the difference between a student, who develops their English language skills, rather than simply the ability to use a smart board, effectively.

Technology helps improve teaching methods, but teaching itself is a human skill, rather than one completely dependent on technology.

I personally believe much of the innovation, and creativity accredited by these major schools is actually outsourced to individuals rater than created by themselves. Lowering costs, without the need to pay taxes, salaries and health care, whilst at the same time gaining credit for another persons ideas.

No wonder Europe and the US have declined so much in the 21st Century, and nations like China, Indonesia, the BRIC nations, and Russia have continually improved economically, and in the field of Education.
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