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Gnawings from the Sawdust Pit
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked OUP if the print edition of the OALD9 contains the Word Origins, and they said that due to lack of space they aren't included in the book, but rather on the CD-ROM that accompanies it.

Still trying to see the point of schoolkids potentially trying to decompose a word like 'believe'. Latin and Ancient Greek are one thing, but Old English is quite another!
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15328

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decompose ?
Deconstruct ?
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm I dunno, deconstruct is too associated with Derrida now, surely? But I take your point that decompose (as opposed to say simply 'analyse') may not be that common or quite the "right" term either.

By the way, spaces before things like question marks seems non-standard LOL.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
Hmm I dunno, deconstruct is too associated with Derrida now, surely? But I take your point that decompose (as opposed to say simply 'analyse') may not be that common or quite the "right" term either.

By the way, spaces before things like question marks seems non-standard LOL.
One could argue [the use of] was implied.
I like the content of your posts very much, by the way.

But it's not that your use of decompose is uncommon, or not quite right, it's unique to your post, or a creative use. The word is applied to text by graphic designers, most often using After Effects software, but indicates the standard meaning of the word.

I'm with Sasha on this topic. I recall a similar discussion with a teacher I greatly admire from the Sudan about teaching IPA notation to Saudi prep-year students. I argued their level was too low and that "another layer" of symbols was confusing. But I was swayed by his argument that some might be confused, others made aware, and that the exclusion of knowledge is not the business of education. However, what teachers give priority is...

So, we drift into appropriate...and the answer is...it depends.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beethoven is decomposing in his grave.

Regards,
John
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's a difference between the undoubted utility of IPA (as it goes only by one thing, sound - WYS/HIWYG, in other words) and the IMHO more questionable relevance of etymology, where WYS may not be quite WYG. (I know that isn't quite what you said, Buravirgil, but hey, that's just me trying to pull your arguable tangent more tightly into the discussion Wink Cool).

And yup, the subconcious parsing in my then informal "telegraphese"-mode head sure must've been

[(Putting) spaces before things like question marks] seems non-standard

One could also place a comma between the 'marks' and 'seems', or reverse the elements each side of that pivot (Seems non-standard, .....) Very Happy


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grahamb



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:02 pm    Post subject: Strike up the band! Reply with quote

Quote:
Beethoven is decomposing in his grave.


Whereas John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in his. Must be something to do with the soil.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
I think there's a difference between the undoubted utility of IPA (as it goes only by one thing, sound - WYHIWYG, in other words)...
Oh, I'll argue that...

(1) An emphasis on form;
(2) The examples assume a familiarity with the target langauge. The examples are chosen for their subtle distinctions.

Etymology is a hobby of mine. There are two kinds: Phonetic and Semantic. The former involves topics such as Grimm and Rask. The second is trickier and what so beguiles many-- meaning.

Regarding Scot's spaces before an interrogative?
Skitt's Law
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
Oh, I'll argue that...

(1) An emphasis on form


...has no predicate?

And how does that relate to

Quote:
(2) The examples assume a familiarity with the target langauge. The examples are chosen for their subtle distinctions.


TBH I haven't heard of Phonetic versus Semantic Etymology, though I am aware that in the absence of texts, reconstructions necessarily become more speculative (e.g. marked with a *). And I'm not sure what that has to do with the synchronic, here-and-now use of the IPA, for instance.

I wouldn't have remarked on Scot's punctuation (which incidentally another Dave's member had for some reason been calling my attention to just prior to this) had he not questioned my choice of words. I only meant it as a light-hearted tit-for-tat, and I'm sure Scot will have taken it as such. As for me (rather than say Scot, or is his Skittish error what you actually meant? (If so, no harm no foul)) being guilty of Skitt's Law ("people who correct others are likely to commit errors themselves"), well you yourself said that 'One could argue [the use of] was implied', so where's the (at least, my) error ultimately?

You said you like the content of my posts very much. Nitpicking or going on (I really don't see why you had to bring Scot's error up a second time, and Skitt's Law is too obvious to state, much less be worthy of any further discussion) about supposed faults in form (whoever's form) rather starts to distract from that content, don't you think? Or do you truly not mind "begging a tedium" LOL.


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decompose

Quote:
1: to separate into constituent parts or elements or into simpler compounds <decompose water by electrolysis> <decompose a word into its base and affixes>

.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
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Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your tolerance, but the humor award goes to grahamb's pun...

Your choice of topics is technical, exacting, and academic. Scot did you a favor. He took the time to read your post carefully and make a query about an error that's beneath you. I was surprised you dug deeper by qualifying the error as you did. But I also think it's beneath you to argue the placement of a space before a question mark is in the same ball park as diction.

I saw what I would call a "double-down" and interjected my own madness because I carefully read your posts as well. Apologies.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if that's all that "careful" reading produces, then I can only ask that people read even more carefully and think before they post. Posts should have a point other than idle nitpicking or simply whittling our time away. Imagined errors are usually just that, imagined.

That is, one can 'decompose' a word into its constituent parts. I've definitely heard if not read the term before, and its usage is clearly attested (as the Merriam-Webster example shows).

So, no error here, in "diction" or otherwise. Nothing to see, move along now LOL.

I also fail to quite understand why you're apparently picking me up on the use of * for what I described as 'speculative reconstructions'. What pray tell is the real difference between my wording and your 'supposed, or constructed'? Confused
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
So, no error here, in "diction" or otherwise. Nothing to see, move along now LOL.
The hamster rules.

Further apologies. I must surrender two blazers (with elbow patches) and a pipe. We'll see what Scot does.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Scot's got any sense, he'll run away screaming. Laughing Very Happy
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never in my life been accused of being "skittish". I thought that was a characteristic of teenage girls and young horses.

And I will continue to place my question mark where I choose.

You don't like it ? Get the Feds onto me !
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