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Anti- teach in Indonesia Propaganda
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princesss



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 136
Location: japan/indo/aust

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

p1randal wrote:
Recruiting is hard because expats are wonky. The things I have seen and watched during my 8 years of teaching and recruiting is wild. This is in a way a good thing as if you are not insane you can command a higher salary as the school will know you will actually do your work and not be a crazy person.

I think we all hope this KITAS thing gets resolved soon so those of us who like it here can move on with their lives haha.


Can anyone confirm whether KITAS aren't being issued at all? Or is it just a go slow? I hear conflicting reports.
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markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject: Mixed Messages Reply with quote

princesss wrote:
I just hope that Jef Dam doesn't try and post any comments on Dave's when he is back in the United Kingdom doing his Master's. Apparently the comments of ex-residents are worthless. It's a rule Markustm is trying to enforce!


Again, I never stated this. you are presuming this, and trying to turn it into a fact.

Shooting the messenger, rather than focusing on the message seems to be acceptable, when someone openly questions the intentions of the "anti-teach in Indonesia campaigners,"
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Anti- teach in Indonesia Propaganda Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
Many of these schools are the ones that take the brunt of this negativity by the regular anti- teach in Indonesia Propaganda posters, often spreading malicious one sided rumors, and innuendo.

My advice to you is read the negative anti- teach in Indonesia postings, but put them in perspective. Why are the people who post many of these comments, are now not in Indonesia? What are the real motive behind the "warnings" they post?
.


Spreading "malicious one-sided rumours" and "innuendo". "What is the real motive behind the "warnings" they post? Propaganda. "Anti-teach-in Indonesia campaigns".

Does you think he could ramp up the sensationalist tabloid style language any higher? It reminds me of a newspaper article from the dictatorial Suharto era; according to the hacks, there were "reds under beds" and "Russian-funded Acehnese separatists" trying to tear Indonesia. Yet in this case the sensationalist language is from someone who accuses others of scare-mongering!

Why would lrgrugby write something like this: "The situation is that schools aren't willing to pay higher wages or that there simply aren't enough qualified applicants as per the rules as outlined by DIKNAS, or both. I'm not entirely aware of all the different ways that schools bend the rules but there is almost a definite need to. "

How is Markustm the only person in Jakarta TEFL who doesn't know that there is "almost a definite need" to bend the rules?

My claims that the schools are routinely breaking the law with respect to visas is confirmed how many times by other people now? Tazz was put on a missionary visa. Memae was put on a sosbud visa. Neither of these are legal work visas. Other users have suggested that abuse is widespread and most of the industry is involved. Jef Dam provided a link to a site where people were making these allegations as far back as 2010. If they are "malicious rumours" with no truth involved, there are an awful lot of people in on the conspiracy!

I guess the wicked, malicious one-sided innuendo-spreaders just roll that way!
We all sit around hatching international conspiracies that to claim that visa fraud is rife in the industry. There is not an ounce of truth to it- Markustm is here to assure you.
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markustm



Joined: 15 Mar 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Anti- teach in Indonesia Propaganda- The Truth? Reply with quote

bradleycooper wrote:
[Does you think he could ramp up the sensationalist tabloid style language any higher? It reminds me of a newspaper article from the dictatorial Suharto era; according to the hacks, there were "reds under beds" and "Russian-funded Acehnese separatists" trying to tear Indonesia. Yet in this case the sensationalist language is from someone who accuses others of scare-mongering!
.



I have questioned "Bradley Coopers" negative campaign about teaching in Indonesia, because I felt he was being unfair to any new visitors who visited this forum, with the intention of working in Indonesia.

If Bradley Cooper ever lived and worked in Indonesia, he must of really enjoyed being in Indonesia i, and felt secure with the teaching situation here, because he would of left the country before the six years he claimed he spent in the country.

After leaving Indonesia, perhaps this contributor realized how good his life was in Indonesia, and somehow decided to deny others the same opportunities, he had himself, during the six years he said he lived in the country with his continuous comments about how bad Indonesia is for teachers.

The reality of life in Indonesia is, the schools , in the past, today, and in the future hire expatriate teachers. They pay their teachers on time, hire them on legal work permits, pay for holidays, and in some cases even help with CELTA/DELTA courses.

The vast majority of teachers in Indonesia, either re-new their contracts, or move on to another school in the country. Some people leave and join the roaming international teaching community, moving on naturally into a new job, and country, whilst at the same time many teachers choose to return and work in Indonesia. Just as it is in most countries in the World.

Indonesia, and teaching in Indonesia is not the dark, dangerous, or sinister experience some people like to claim on this forum, and I hope this only encourages you to work or visit this amazing country.
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lrbrugby



Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Newcastle, England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did indeed say that there almost a definite need for the law to be broken. Laws tend to flexible or fluid to some extent in this region. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand "technically" as some kind of way of saving face. Now, I'm not saying that teachers should equate their employment status to that of prostitutes but there has to be some kind of level headed acknowledgement that greasing palms is an every day part of life.

'Legality' is a dubious thing in a country where the police are notorious for demanding bribes. Does that mean that Indonesia or Jakarta are bad places to live?... I don't believe it does and I tend to agree with MarkusTM. It's hard to take a post seriously when someone is perceived as getting emotional and not really carrying the discussion forward. Indonesia is a wonderful place, with great destinations, a wonderful cuisine and the friendliest locals anywhere in the world. I wholeheartedly believe this and that is why it is my favourite country visited to date.

Any prospective teachers just need to be aware that it is a 'developing' nation and life is different than it is in the West. Does that mean that you should be afraid to try and teach there with standard TEFL qualifications?... I don't believe it does. Some schools or language schools may not employ you but plenty of places will and providing they are willing to do what it takes to get you a KITAS then I believe things would most probably be fine.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: Anti- teach in Indonesia Propaganda- The Truth? Reply with quote

markustm wrote:
bradleycooper wrote:
[Does you think he could ramp up the sensationalist tabloid style language any higher? It reminds me of a newspaper article from the dictatorial Suharto era; according to the hacks, there were "reds under beds" and "Russian-funded Acehnese separatists" trying to tear Indonesia. Yet in this case the sensationalist language is from someone who accuses others of scare-mongering!
.


Indonesia, and teaching in Indonesia is not the dark, dangerous, or sinister experience some people like to claim on this forum, and I hope this only encourages you to work or visit this amazing country.


Please show me where I said that English teaching is "dark, dangerous or sinister." This is the kind of distorting and misrepresenting of language which the original poster accuses others of and yet constantly does himself.

I have mentioned that 26 teachers have just been deported from Indonesia due to a visa technicality which they weren't responsible for. This incident has been widely reported. It was even in The Guardian and Sydney Morning Herald. According to relatives of Tazz the whole visa issuance process is now at a standstill. That is exactly the kind of thing which should be discussed on here.

I do agree that most people like teaching in Jakarta. It has good restaurants and night life and locals are friendly. I have advised teachers on this forum to consider working at Wall Street and Penabur. My overall view is more nuanced than the op wants to say. He just wants to yell "negative campaign" and discredit me. I have even been accused by Mark of being a "paid stooge" of competitors when I recommend other schools to his recent former employer. It is just a strategy to discredit me as they don't have an ounce of proof anyone paid me a cent. They won't find it either as I am very anti-corruption and it never happened.

In reality I know that lrbrugby is correct and bribes are very common. I fear that DIKNAS is actually quite nasty and are favouring some well-connected schools over others. Rumah Bahasa isn't even registered as a company so it can't even apply for KITASes but it carries on doing business a couple of hundred metres from an Immigration office with a farrago of teachers on tourist visas. That isn't possible if DIKNAS and Immigration are serious about their own regulations. Yes, lrbrugby is right- this is part of the lubricant which makes bureaucracy run in South East Asia, but it imposes enormous costs on society and slows development.

What is happening in Jakarta is actually very similar to a protection racket. Some schools are favoured and others must comply with the letter of the law. I'm not the first to say it on here. It must make life very difficult for people not in the loop.
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lrbrugby



Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Posts: 9
Location: Newcastle, England

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is one thing that new teachers in Indonesia should be aware of is that there are no constants in the country in this sense. The British Council is a very reputable teaching organisation that is currently - if not at least has been very recently - running a rolling recruitment exercise to work at it's centres in Medan. They are not an organisation I would associate with foul play in terms of visa regulations and yet their job requirements in terms of qualifications seem to be CELTA + BA/BSc and two years experience.

I wonder if DIKNAS is afraid of imposing it's silly legalities on organisations associated with foreign governments. What are the requirements to work at IALF? Are they in some way affiliated/sponsored/associated with the Australian government? If so, and they are for want of a better word sensible in their demands for teachers that work for these companies, then it seems sensible to assume that they are capable of acting rationally towards certain schools. Of course nobody can really dispute that schools like EF and Rumah Bahasa are getting away with things in an 'illegal' way.

Wall Street has a good reputation and is playing ball with the letter of the law as according to these requirements it seems but these requirements are silly.

Perhaps the OP is a little sensationalist/emotional too, in regards to causing BradleyCooper to feel attacked, but I still believe in the crux of the issue that was initially posted at the start of this thread to some degree. Indonesian employment regulations and their enforcement are murky at best. Not much is clear but it is entirely possible that new teachers will find work and should aspire to do so if they really wish to work in Indonesia. It is a fantastic place to live and work and the prospects of getting a job are reasonably decent for a lot of teachers that don't meet the requirements for a visa, as set out by the regulations.
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jef dam



Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think lrbrugby has said everything that needs to be said on this matter.

Yes, there are dodgy schools.

Yes, there are companies that attempt to screw teachers.

I can't recall a post where anyone said, or even implied, anything to the contrary.

In my experience, and in a lot of my peer group's experience, schools like that are the exception, rather than the rule.


As an aside, blogs and forums are not always reliable sources of information. Some may well be, but lots of blogs are poorly informed, biased, pushing specific agendas, or at worst unfiltered brain farts.

For example:

http://www.nasty-bali.org/

Would reading the above blog, clearly the work of an utter lunatic with an ax to grind, stop you from visiting or working in Bali?

The quality of information available on forums is down to the posters who frequent them, and again they can be poorly informed, biased, pushing specific agendas, or just straight up trolls.

Tread carefully and take everything with a dose of NaCl.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lrgrubgy said: I did indeed say that there almost a definite need for the law to be broken. Laws tend to flexible or fluid to some extent in this region. Prostitution is illegal in Thailand "technically" as some kind of way of saving face. Now, I'm not saying that teachers should equate their employment status to that of prostitutes but there has to be some kind of level headed acknowledgement that greasing palms is an every day part of life.

'Legality' is a dubious thing in a country where the police are notorious for demanding bribes. Does that mean that Indonesia or Jakarta are bad places to live?... I don't believe it does.


I've heard it said that the surest sign of insincerity on an Internet forum is something who claims not to know the basics. I simply don't believe that Markustm could have lived in Indonesia for the last 4 years and not know that the industry was based on "dubious legality". Again and again he has assured people that teachers are on the correct work visas. If everyone else knows that rules are routinely bent, why doesn't he?

But overall, if the final judgment is that there is only a small but real risk of having legal problems, even if you are on the wrong visa, then I agree that is correct. I would only add that if you can get KITAS, then that's much better. It's the only "risk free" visa option.
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praccus



Joined: 13 Apr 2011
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: RE: Salary - Reply with quote

Yes KITAS is still being used. Yes it has got a lot more difficult throughout the last term of teaching, yes JIS has undoubtedly had an effect on this, yes the election has just happened so let's see where we go when the dust settles, no you shouldn't freak out and die if you don't have a degree in English and 5 (the latest ruling ... I forget exactly) years of teaching experience .... yes finding a good and trustworthy school will go a long way to alleviating some of the freak out fears noted a couple of lines above, no I don't work for any of the schools commonly mentioned and fought about on these Indo threads. No I wouldn't work here without being legal, not with the numbers of people that have been audited, so to speak, in recent weeks/months.

Yes Indonesia is a lovely place to live. Yes this is in fact just the face of my own opinion. Selamat malam, monggo.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 112
Location: SumUt

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jef dam wrote:
RE: Salary -

Yes the rupiah is weak at the moment, however, that doesn't really impact your purchasing power within Indonesia.


No, but inflation does ... bawang mahal, beras mahal, BBM naik ... harga semuanya naik terus, 'kan?

Our salaries may be the same in rupiah, but check the price of a Big Mac or Supar Besar compared with two years ago ... we are still working for less purchasing power, even in country, so don't make out that it's irrelevant. My wife tried to tell me that one too, but you can't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining, even in Indonesia.
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bradleycooper



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mysterytrain wrote:
jef dam wrote:
RE: Salary -

Yes the rupiah is weak at the moment, however, that doesn't really impact your purchasing power within Indonesia.


No, but inflation does ... bawang mahal, beras mahal, BBM naik ... harga semuanya naik terus, 'kan?

Our salaries may be the same in rupiah, but check the price of a Big Mac or Supar Besar compared with two years ago ... we are still working for less purchasing power, even in country, so don't make out that it's irrelevant. My wife tried to tell me that one too, but you can't piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining, even in Indonesia.


That's exactly what this thread is all about. Started by someone who has got numerous threads removed due to homophobic slurs and defamatory attacks, it is about making empty promises and false assurances. This person who is supposedly angry about "anti-Indonesia" posts is happy to run down competitor schools himself. Buyer beware.

Nonetheless, there are reputable employers in Indonesia- Wall Street and the new EF Adult Centres are excellent options for people who the right degrees- but there are also some sharks and people need to make sure they will be given a KITAS. There are encouraging signs on this front. For example, I notice that the EF Harmoni Group now promises in their job ads that they will get a KITAS (valid work visa) for their employees. Employers who get the right visa for teachers clearly have a major selling point. It's a positive thing that prospective teachers have greater awareness of what the right visa is.

But on the issue of inflation which MysteryTrain raises, a couple of points. Indonesia has averaged 8% inflation p/a over the past decade. It went into double-digit territory for long periods in 2005 and 2010. Therefore, you will find that Indonesia prices have gone up a great deal in recent years, especially for "discretionary spending" items.

The same lower-end hotel I could get for Rp 100,000 in Cirebon or Yogya in 2005 cost around Rp 300,000 in 2012. You could easily say the same about restaurant prices, as Indonesia imports a lot of meat, especially beef, therefore it is sensitive to fluctuations in the rupiah.

But if prices have doubled over the past 10 years (and this is a conservative estimate in some categories), wages haven't kept pace. Many of the language schools have barely raised their wages over the past decade, or only offer 15%-20% more than they did 10 years ago. (Look on old threads for confirmation). Meanwhile, prices have increased 100% or more.

In 2005, petrol was heavily subsidized at a mere 2000 rp a litre and taxis cost next to nothing. Petrol is still subsidized but it now costs 7700 rp per litre- a 350% increase. That has seeped through to everything. Jokowi has said he will reduce fuel subsidies further, so we can expect that prices will probably continue to rise over the next couple of years.

Having said that, Indonesia is still a fairly cheap country, so you can survive on what seems like a minimal wage there. But it is a much less attractive on a wage of less than Rp 10 million than it used to be. I note also that Indonesian wages have increased sharply in this period. The minimum wage in Jakarta has more than doubled from 1 million rupiah per month to 2.2 million per month, and many Indonesian teachers now get Rp 5 million a month or so. TEFL wages have been stagnant in Indonesia, except at the top-end of the TEFL game. It is nonsense to say that inflation, the falling rupiah and rising local wages haven't eroded what your TEFL wage will buy you.
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Tazz



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 142
Location: Jakarta

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No experienced or qualifed teacher should even consider anything less than 12 million a month + housing allowance.....and any employers offering less than this should be named and shamed.
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mysterytrain



Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 112
Location: SumUt

PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tazz wrote:
No experienced or qualifed teacher should even consider anything less than 12 million a month + housing allowance.....and any employers offering less than this should be named and shamed.


That isn't my problem ... my problem is that 'X" rupiah is still the same as when I signed the contract, but price inflation on consumer goods did not remain static as salary did, and just in case I should want or need to "convert", 'X" and 'Y" USD ("X" being the value in USD when I signed the contract, and "Y" the value now) are pretty different sums. It's not a huge problem, but that's what I'm talking about. There is definitely an effect on one's financial health and buying power overall, even if it is not a debilitating one assuming one has a decent salary to begin with.

About "the other thing": TBI definitely seems to have a WOM reputation of hiring teachers and letting them teach on non-valid visas (business), which would put these teachers at imminent risk of deportation if caught by Imigrasi. To be fair, I don't know for a fact that this is true, it's just "what people seem to be saying about them". It is possible that this is the work of a few dedicated saboteurs who are out to pull TBI down by whatever means conceivable, for whatever reasons imaginable, and don't mind stooping to mistruths, unproven conjectures or even outright lies to do so. I'm only saying that, theoretically, that is possible. However, my personal opinion is that more than likely in this case, where there is smoke there may be fire.
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princesss



Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 136
Location: japan/indo/aust

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mysterytrain wrote:
Tazz wrote:
No experienced or qualifed teacher should even consider anything less than 12 million a month + housing allowance.....and any employers offering less than this should be named and shamed.


That isn't my problem ... my problem is that 'X" rupiah is still the same as when I signed the contract, but price inflation on consumer goods did not remain static as salary did, and just in case I should want or need to "convert", 'X" and 'Y" USD ("X" being the value in USD when I signed the contract, and "Y" the value now) are pretty different sums. It's not a huge problem, but that's what I'm talking about. There is definitely an effect on one's financial health and buying power overall, even if it is not a debilitating one assuming one has a decent salary to begin with.

About "the other thing": TBI definitely seems to have a WOM reputation of hiring teachers and letting them teach on non-valid visas (business), which would puts these teachers at imminent risk of deportation if caught by Imigrasi. To be fair, I don't know for a fact that this is true, it's just "what people seem to be saying about them". It is possible that this is the work of a few dedicated saboteurs who are out to pull TBI down by whatever means conceivable, for whatever reasons imaginable, and don't mind stooping to mistruths, unproven conjectures or even outright lies to do so. I'm only saying that, theoretically, that is possible. However, my personal opinion is that more than likely in this case, where there is smoke there may be fire.


The best proof that something is wrong at TBI is to see how many promises they break. They were advertising for teachers for TBI Bali in 2012, 2013 and early this year and it still hasn't opened. Meanwhile Wall Street had opened 4 schools during this time and EF has opened two upmarket Adult Centres. TBI are just not competitive like they used to be. Why do they have to put teachers in business visas? It's because qualified teachers are smart enough to see through them and don't stick around. They simply are not impressive to fully trained teachers or English graduates.

Also look at their Facebook pages. It is common that they won't update social media for months at a time. This indirectly reflects cronyism. The Business Development Manager got rid of all expat managers besides himself and his best mate and promoted people based on personal loyalty to him rather than qualifications or ability. It is hardly surprising that some of these new managers do no work and the website has notices from 2 years ago on noticeboards. They have become chronically lazy which is why Wall Street and EF FX Mall are killing them. TBI Sudirman has 300 likes on Facebook and the EF Adult Centre across the road has 37500. Blaming saboteurs for their own failure is really shooting the messenger.

I have original emails in which the Business Manager ordered people to start hiring teachers illegally in 2011. PM if you would like me to forward you copies. I don't think dokng a cut and paste is as convincing. They will say I "doctored" them to discredit TBI.
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