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Experienced teacher- Do I really need a CELTA?
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 4294
Location: Terra firma

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluetortilla wrote:
One- I really do appreciate your time and consideration in response to my first post. You don’t know me, and your concerns are very practical. Two- I do believe that I stated my philosophy towards TEFL, education and (to a lesser extent but still evident) to teaching itself in my response to both Shroob and myself. To sum up, I find the commercialization of English teaching to be very unfortunate. I must say, however, that I’m encouraged by the responses I’ve received, including this one.

I looked at the qualifications you indicated from the perspective of potential employers and found it odd that you lumped non-teaching experience/qualifications into what you consider makes you an experienced teacher. Plus, you were vague about your actual ("mostly" full-time) classroom experience. That's why I presented those food-for-thought questions, which really weren't meant for you to answer on this forum. Anyway, my comments were never intended to slap you down; I wanted to point out that your description of yourself as an experienced teacher came across as waffling on your actual teaching experience. Just something to keep in mind when employers ask you specifically about your relevant TEFL experience.

and bluetortilla wrote:
nomad soul wrote:
I'm not a CELTA holder (my degree entailed an ESOL practicum),

Yes, so did mine! As I’ve pointed out, I already have a TESOL ‘practicum’ as part of my MA. I worked really hard in that course.

It's odd you stated you have two BAs, yet you failed to mention you have an MA in, I assume, TESOL. And since your degree culminated in a supervised practicum, why the heck are you concerned about having to do a CELTA? You likely have a comprehensive teaching portfolio as a requirement of your practicum that you can show to prospective employers.

again wrote:
I’m not sure why CELTA would appeal to ‘better employers’ or what ‘better employers’ actually means. In my job now I am far more concerned about curriculum, class management and motivation- things of that sort, than I am with the department. I’m trusted and there is good student feedback both ways. It’s a self-correcting system.

If CELTA is seen mostly as a cost-cutting measure to avoid investing teacher training, I don’t consider that appealing to what I’d consider a better employer. In my early years, my employers encouraged me and sometimes made me attend workshops and seminars. Almost every major city has them. It became a good habit that stuck and has been a big part of my development as a teacher over the years.
As you know, there is plenty of significant debate raging good and bad over CELTA in many forums. I think almost all that CELTA provides can be had for free, and yeah, to me it is definitely a newbie thing. That doesn’t make it bad, just basic.

Finally we have to consider ’supervised’ teaching. To whose standards (and biases)? What qualifies professionals to become observers? By what criteria? It might seem easy for a English mill supervisor to say, ‘OK, he’s got a CELTA; that shows he can teach,’ but the reality is far more complicated than that and a ‘good’ employer should know that.

As previously stated by me and others in this thread, the major of appeal of CELTA and equivalent TEFL certs isn't the CELTA itself, but the requisite, observed teaching practice trainees complete (with real students) under the supervision of a seasoned tutor. It's likely quite similar to the practicum you completed for your MA and with the same criteria you were assessed on when your supervising teacher observed you teaching real students in a classroom situation. Anyway, to prospective employers, a CELTA/equivalent TEFL cert confirms the applicant has received proper supervised teacher training.

In regard to what defines the "better" employers, in a nutshell, they're who many teachers would like to work for---not so much for the money. The better employers exhibit sound business practices, provide good employee benefits, support professional development and in-house training, maintain an equitable work environment, ensure teaching is consistent (requires annual formal and peer observations), etc.

lastly wrote:
Well, as you can see I’m doing my best to avoid it.

Yep, that's obvious. But given you have an MA in TESOL, there's no reason for you to take the CELTA or any TEFL cert course.
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bluetortilla



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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Location: Fukuoka

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neutrino Girl wrote:

Different countries have different requirements, and I have read about some places requiring a BA + TEFL Cert as the minimum to get a work visa teaching English (but I'm really sorry, I couldn't tell you offhand which countries those were....maybe other posters would know, I can't remember!). Yes, surely an MA in the field would definitely meet / exceed that requirement. Is that what you have? I didn't see that in your initial post. But again, if you want to work part time, I think that you may struggle to get an employer to sponsor your work visa in most places. There are usually minimum work hour requirements for visas and employers are responsible for reporting and paying tax on those hours. That's what your biggest hurdle may be at this point.


Yep- that's what I want to know, though I really can't understand why immigration would care. But it is something I cannot change. To tell the truth, my impulse is to jump to Africa before giving Cambridge my money for what is (to me) a worthless CELTA. Now that's the worst thing I've said about the CELTA yet but lest someone should hold it against me, I would ask them to weigh that judgment in light of my situation. The last thing in the world I want to do at this stage is get a CELTA! I 'graduated' a long long time ago. Oh, and I'm not trying to make Africa sound like a last ditch place either- I find it incredibly fascinating. It's just I've spent most of my life in Asia.

No, I don't have an MA in TESOL. Attempted getting that off the ground a couple of times and something happened both times. But I do have great experience and significant achievements, for what it's (or is not) worth. But to heck with an MA in TESOL- I want to work on an MA in linguistics, which is what has interested me along anyway. The uni I'm applying to has said grand, but I need to pass at least HSK 5 first. I'm not far off.

As I said in the other thread, I'm not sure what the rules are aside from China. I've been searching for TEFL + Laos and I keep finding suspicious sites saying that the credential is 'required' for teaching in 'international schools' and 'language centers.' There is no mention of it at all on the government's website however, just that you be employed. Very frustrating. Sorry for complaining.[/i]
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bluetortilla



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 674
Location: Fukuoka

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
But given you have an MA in TESOL, there's no reason for you to take the CELTA or any TEFL cert course.


Again, thanks for all the help. It's appreciated.

Sorry if I led you to believe I had an MA in TESOL, I meant to type 'part of my BA'. If I did, of course I wouldn't be asking about this. I'm working on an MA in linguistics- SE Asian languages, but I'm still in the prep (entrance exam) stage.
For what it's worth, my second BA is in Foreign Language- Japanese.

I will keep in mind that employers want someone who will teach well and may not care about other academic pursuits. I think that's a mistake I made at my last job interview at a uni in Kunming. They probably felt I had a conflict of interests.


Last edited by bluetortilla on Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bluetortilla



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully clearer (w/o trying to sound like a cv):
50 years old, native speaker (American English)
Full time TEFL and ESL professional teacher for over 20 years in Japan, the U.S., and China
Double BA in Political Science and Japanese
JLPT 1st Level (in my day second language proficiency was highly recommended and highly regarded for TESOL teachers)
Three university credits in TESOL as part of BA program (i.e. a TEFL cert. equivalent)
English school owner for 15 years in Japan, 1995-2010
Admin, instructor, and teacher trainer for the English program at a public elementary school in Japan for three years, 2004-2007
Active member of JALT and ETJ from 1990-2010, gave over twenty presentations and kept up to date on methodology through workshops and literature

OK, there was the time I went to Hawaii for two years and did not teach English and the year my father was ill and I spent a year at home in the United States but other than that I have either been teaching full time (mostly), designing curriculum, hiring and/or training teachers. The college I work for now has given me an 'excellent' reference, and during my career teaching has been observed for evaluation by many people of different capacities (including principals and deans) on far more occasions than I can count.

I now realize I'm trying to 'answer' those food for thought questions, but if nothing else it makes me feel better and clarifies priorities. I do know I don't want to take another TESOL program if I can possibly avoid it. On the other hand I'd like a lighter schedule so I can study. I don't know if that's an advantage or not...
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluetortilla wrote:
Sorry if I led you to believe I had an MA in TESOL. If I did, of course I wouldn't be asking about this. I'm working on an MA in linguistics- SE Asian languages, but I'm still in the prep (entrance exam) stage.

For what it's worth, my second BA is in Foreign Language- Japanese.

That clears up the confusion about your questions on supervised teaching practice in general in addition to your statement that you'd already completed a TESOL practicum for your MA. Something was off because the practical component is nearly always completed at the end of the degree program and not at the beginning. Anyway...

bluetortilla wrote:
I will keep in mind that employers want someone who will teach well and may not care about other academic pursuits. I think that's a mistake I made at my last job interview at a uni in Kunming. They probably felt I had a conflict of interests.

You need to decide what your job role is in terms of relevancy, and then stick with it when applying and interviewing for positions.

So, are you:
    a) a former administrator and owner of a school/center who also teaches?
    b) an EFL teacher who's also a former administrator and owner of a school/center?
    c) a student in an MA in Linguistics program who can also teach?
    d) an experienced EFL teacher who's proficient in Japanese?
    e) an experienced EFL teacher?
    f) ____________?
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bluetortilla



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:

You need to decide what your job role is in terms of relevancy, and then stick with it when applying and interviewing for positions.

So, are you:
    a) a former administrator and owner of a school/center who also teaches?
    b) an EFL teacher who's also a former administrator and owner of a school/center?
    c) a student in an MA in Linguistics program who can also teach?
    d) an experienced EFL teacher who's proficient in Japanese?
    e) an experienced EFL teacher?
    f) ____________?


That's easy, C! However, I get the impression that employers seem worried that my studies will distract me from my job. I just want them to know that I am very comfortable in my skin as a teacher and they need not worry about that.
Although not formerly enrolled at the moment, I've been studying Chinese intensely for nearly two years now and I'm getting up to the level of proficiency I need to enroll in university in Yunnan, China as a grad student in linguistics. For reasons I need not go into here I think it better to leave China for a while until I'm able to pass said exam and then return next fall. Both the language groups of Laos and Myanmar are particularly suited for the research I want to do.
So I'd want a job teaching basically to pay for rent and living. I'm extremely frugal and pretty much just want to study all the time. I do love teaching though and there's never been a conflict with my studies and my job now. I believe I've done a good job here and both my students and the department have given me high marks.
But how do you explain all that to a perspective employer? If I were hiring someone, I'd certainly understand it but I think a lot of school owners would be suspicious. It's not your everyday candidate obviously. As a school owner, the thing I always wanted first and foremost was dependability, and I want to reassure my prospective employer of that.
Perhaps I should emphasize that I'm an experienced teacher with a keen interest in Laos and the culture, with an intent on staying for a year to learn as much as possible about Laos. That is true after all.
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rtm



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 615
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluetortilla wrote:
That's easy, C! However, I get the impression that employers seem worried that my studies will distract me from my job. I just want them to know that I am very comfortable in my skin as a teacher and they need not worry about that.

Sure, if you consider yourself first a student, and then a teacher, I can understand why employers would be worried about hiring you as a teacher.

Quote:
I do love teaching though and there's never been a conflict with my studies and my job now. I believe I've done a good job here and both my students and the department have given me high marks.
But how do you explain all that to a perspective employer?

As others have indicated, one way to show a minimum level of teaching competence is the CELTA. For showing teaching competence beyond that, I suppose letters of recommendation, a teaching portfolio (containing samples of lessons and materials you have created), and a teaching philosophy document might be ways you could do so, but that's assuming that potential employers will look at them. For entry-level jobs that only require a minimum level of teaching competence, I'd guess that some employers won't look at all of those extra materials, though some might. I suppose it depends on how many applications they get.

Quote:
Perhaps I should emphasize that I'm an experienced teacher with a keen interest in Laos and the culture, with an intent on staying for a year to learn as much as possible about Laos. That is true after all.

Right, but keep in mind that they won't be hiring you "to learn as much as possible about Laos". They'll be hiring you to teach English.

I think you need to decide which you want to pursue as your main activity, your linguistics studies or EFL teaching. If the former, seek out universities or programs where you can get a student visa and study, and then once you've done that, ask those places if there are any opportunities to teach a little bit on the side.
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bluetortilla



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rtm wrote:

I think you need to decide which you want to pursue as your main activity, your linguistics studies or EFL teaching. If the former, seek out universities or programs where you can get a student visa and study, and then once you've done that, ask those places if there are any opportunities to teach a little bit on the side.


I'm not sure I agree about employers not caring about a candidate's interest in their country's culture. Some of the crasser ones could care less perhaps, but I found that local people, particularly Asians, have a lot of pride in their culture and appreciate it when foreigners show interest in it. It's a sign of respect.

Or am I such a dinosaur that things like culture and understanding don't mean anything in the classroom anymore and all that counts now are scores and learning English as just another module in getting ahead in the world?

I've written on another thread about the school I'm applying for and the problems associated with working legally part-time on a student visa in China. I can foresee a solution to that, but I've chosen to exit China for a bit. Actually, unless you're independently wealthy or young enough to get a scholarship, it's not at all easy to get a student visa in many countries. And the rules are usually restrictive. It is possible of course.

By the way, do you hire people? What kind of schools are we talking about here? Public schools, junior colleges, international schools, training schools? Because in all my interview experiences, I've not come across the need to be as diligent as you describe. At most, I've been asked to give a demo lesson, which either works out, or not. Mostly, we talk about teaching and students and how I would handle certain situations. Employers also seem to have at least half made up their mind on the basis of my resume and the exchanges by email or telephone before I even meet them. I've never written out a Philosophy of Teaching and frankly I don't think that sort of thing would appeal to me either as a candidate or as an employer. I have made video clips of my teaching however.

We're talking about Laos here (and Myanmar), right? The country where backpackers are pouring in and out, many making some travel money on the side, the country where I've been told I'd be bored out of my skull after a few months, and where there is brisk turnover...There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but I simply cannot believe that all of these people have a TEFL certificate, or that half the schools really care that much about it, or even that the teachers stay for long. I just find it hard to believe that Laos is going to be that rigorous in its demands, though timing will be a key factor.

If anyone out there is reading this and teaching in Laos, let us know. Otherwise I'll just go and see.
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bluetortilla



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, I just got this email reply back from Gooverseas.com:

Quote:
Hi Philip,

Thank you for submitting your question to us. To answer:

Generally in the ESL world, having experience is viewed as more important than a TEFL certificate -- especially in emerging ESL markets like Laos. The push for TEFL certificates is more applicable to the cohort of folks with little / no experience teaching ESL who want to go abroad. However, it sounds like you have an impressive and applicable resume and I wouldn't worry about a lack of TEFL certification.

If there is any component of your M.A. studies that focuses on TEFL education, highlight that in your resume.

Hope that helps!

Best,
Jessie

Well that settles it for me. These are people promoting certificates after all.
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Shroob



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluetortilla wrote:

No offense Shroob, really none, but I'm just dying to address these points. Experience shows no indication of quality? Education, achievements, past positions of responsibility don't mean anything? Who would you rather perform heart surgery on you, the intern or the surgeon in his 50's who's done a thousand of them?
Yes there is burn out. Yes, there are bad teachers and bad doctors. But it is very rare for someone to have been teaching for over 20 years who has not learned a lot. What makes a 'good' teacher vs. a 'bad' one? Isn't that subjective? I do believe that to care about your students in a genuine way is probably the most important thing you can do as a teacher.
You didn't say that over the years teachers get behind in methods and methodology but you might be implying it. Let's look at it though: are methods today that much different or better than they were a couple of decades ago? If they are, and language acquisition has improved, do we have measurable data to back up that claim? For many years I was completely sold on communicative methods. In the last decade I have found it utilitarian to incorporate a lot more grammar-translation methods into my lessons. It all depends on the class environment. In any case, I am sure I have kept up-to-date on the latest trends in TEFL and I can't imagine teachers who have taught as long as i have who don't- you'd be bored out of your skull otherwise. Maybe you know exceptions. I would say this: just being older doesn't make you a good teacher obviously, but a veteran teacher with lots of experience will probably be pretty good or maybe even excellent at what he/she does- it's common sense really.
What really gets my goat (and again nothing personal to Shroob) is how TESOL became to be seen as an industry and started following industry models. Fast food is an industry, mining is an industry, but let's hear it: are we educators or not? I for one like to think I work in academics, not industry. That's why I don't work in shite mills like EF (well, have never been desperate enough yet anyway and apologies to ye millers). I think we're out to broaden minds, not to make money for some corporation. If that sounds too idealistic to some, then I'd suggest they reexamine their role as an educator. There is honor and dignity in quality education. I have always believed that.
A CELTA may give an employer a sense of what they can expect. But that is very generic and (to me) superficial. I also know what to expect when I order a macha latte at Starbucks. Does that give it quality? I don't know, but no matter which Starbucks in the world you go you'll know what to expect. Should we patent 'TESOL' credentials so that we can make teaching uniform around the world as well? In other words, standardize and commoditize it? How boring that would be! CELTA should be a springboard- in that role it's fine I think.
Just the other side of the coin to think about.


Sorry for the late reply, I missed this post.

No worries, I can see where you're coming from. To have been in the game (better than industry? Laughing ) for such a long time and then to be told you need an 'entry level' certificate must seem daft.

However, I do standby what I said. In my opinion, the CELTA is still a worthwhile investment in if nothing else it opens doors. It's another box to tick.

I'm not sure a surgeon is a suitable analogy, with surgery there's a pretty clear cut measurable outcome. With teaching it's less distinct, especially with the rise of learner autonomy in recent years. I'm also not one to prescribe methods, whatever works...works. Sense of plausibility and all that... The CELTA may be the equivalent of Starbucks, but as myself and others have said, that's desirable.

There's also a big difference, from what I can tell, between 'Gooverseas.com' and a CELTA. The CELTA is the standard, it has a level of quality assurance, whereas 'Gooverseas.com' could be anything.

But that's just what I think.

Good luck with your studies!
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rtm



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluetortilla wrote:
I'm not sure I agree about employers not caring about a candidate's interest in their country's culture. Some of the crasser ones could care less perhaps, but I found that local people, particularly Asians, have a lot of pride in their culture and appreciate it when foreigners show interest in it. It's a sign of respect.

I think that an interest in the location can make a difference, but in my experience it has been more because it shows that you will be dedicated to the location (i.e., you likely won't quit soon, and might put more effort into your teaching if you care about the people you teach). That is, my impression is that employers will notice your interest in the location for reasons that benefit them through you being a better English teacher, not for reasons that will benefit your extra-curricular interests. But, that's just my impression.

Quote:
Or am I such a dinosaur that things like culture and understanding don't mean anything in the classroom anymore and all that counts now are scores and learning English as just another module in getting ahead in the world?

I don't think you are a dinosaur, no. But, I do think that nowadays, more people are learning English because it has instrumental value, not as an ends of its own. I also think that there have been changes in the degree to which learning "culture" is valuable as a part of learning English.

Quote:
By the way, do you hire people? What kind of schools are we talking about here? Public schools, junior colleges, international schools, training schools? Because in all my interview experiences, I've not come across the need to be as diligent as you describe. At most, I've been asked to give a demo lesson, which either works out, or not. Mostly, we talk about teaching and students and how I would handle certain situations. Employers also seem to have at least half made up their mind on the basis of my resume and the exchanges by email or telephone before I even meet them. I've never written out a Philosophy of Teaching and frankly I don't think that sort of thing would appeal to me either as a candidate or as an employer. I have made video clips of my teaching however.

No, I've never been on the hiring side before. But, I've been on the applicant side a number of times, and I have had to submit a teaching philosophy, a teaching portfolio, a video-taped teaching demo, and letters of recommendation. Of course, requirements and application procedures vary by location and type of institution, and I don't know about specific cases in Laos and Myanmar. You asked for suggestions of ways to communicate your experience and teaching ability to potential employers, other than a certificate, and I was just throwing out some ideas based on things I've been asked to provide before. Smile
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naturegirl321



Joined: 04 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Malaysia and China requiere a TEFL but you can get around Them if you have other quals?
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EFL Educator



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today a TEFL certificate certifies you are sane to teach English Without one you may be considered not sane to teach English! Laughing
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bluetortilla



Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

naturegirl321 wrote:
I believe Malaysia and China requiere a TEFL but you can get around Them if you have other quals?


I'm teaching in China right now without a T Cert. and just went job hunting in China and was never asked for one. It seems that in China you're talking about mostly language centers or elementary/middle school for teachers without a BA. You need at least a BA to teach in colleges or universities with two years teaching experience in China, but I'm sure the day is coming when you'll need an MA. However, in China, many many things can be got around. And many things can easily slam shut as well. Tricky place.

Isn't it just another loop everyone is encouraged to jump through? It sure has fed on this teacher's fears. Thinking about it, schools may set their own requirements of course but it's pretty zany to think the department of immigration would require such a certificate. A college diploma perhaps...

Anyway, I'm happy with the answer I got from the facilitators themselves. I don't need one.

EFL Educator wrote:
Today a TEFL certificate certifies you are sane to teach English Without one you may be considered not sane to teach English! Laughing


Oh, I'm certified loony tunes; that's what makes me so attractive as a teacher and popular with students!
Doesn't the desire to live in and teach in places like Laos and Myanmar make you pretty much an oddball from the get go? : D : D : D
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naturegirl321



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For china I believe you need at least two

BA
Over 25
TEFL cert
2 years exp
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