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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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 Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
I think the list above is the case for most of you chaps, not all of you; some of you are gentlemen. Cheap thrills, cheap food, cheap girls, cheap beer, feeling like a "somebody" when you're as Joe Average as they come, might be appealing in the beginning, but one must face certain facts, and that it's all an illusion; one needs a reality check from time to time. |
I'm not sure what you're not getting here. There seems to be a big disconnect in your mind. You say people are getting defensive at your comments, when really we've only politely disagreed with you. Which is more than you have done.
I spend about $1000 each month living here in Vietnam, and that's living frivolously. Going to the cinema weekly, going out to eat for nearly every meal, going out several nights per week with the girlfriend or friends, etc. I could save a lot more if I wanted to.
This is what it seems you don't understand: When your cost of living is only $1000 per month, and you're making quite a bit more than that, where is this dismal quality of life you keep alluding to? You're easily putting away at least $10,000 a year into savings. Which if you're living in the west doesn't sound very good, but when you're only spending $1,000 a month it's more money than you could ever spend.
This is the disconnect with you. You don't seem capable of translating cost of living to the wages you receive. You're comparing people's lives to your misguided views of what a Western income should be.
Perhaps this is why you had so much trouble holding down a job while you lived in Vietnam. And perhaps this is why you're a 40 year old male, who jumps from country to country (read washed out), and tries to score "points" by trolling internet forums.
| kurtz wrote: |
It has been a bit of a long day, so I skimmed most of the posts. I will say I am a teacher so I am quite happy in the classroom. I have found that it's people who don't want to teach, or who can't teach that want to leave the classroom. Doing observations, training sessions, boring tasks in front of the computer, no thanks.
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I'd also like to point out that some people got into this profession because they love education. Teaching is a rewarding job in that if you work at the right place, you really feel like you can make a difference in people's lives. I love being in the classroom and interacting with students, but that doesn't mean I want to do it for the rest of my life. I do hope to be in the educational field for the rest of my life, but I also believe there's ways other than being in the classroom where I can make a difference. You might love cooking, but that doesn't mean you should work in fast food the rest of your life. Having long term goals is pretty key to not washing out down the road. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi Luke,
Thanks for your kind words.
If you cast your eyes on the first page, you’ll see any of the less than savory talk was started by Ieltsteacher. I was merely honest with him, as I always am.
I missed the part where I said I couldn’t hold down a job in Vietnam. Could you please find any evidence of me saying that? I know you love searching through my posting history, so I have full confidence that you’ll find it. I did, however, change jobs; each one was better than the last; self-improvement, who would have thought?
I left a half decent IELTS prep job as my wife had a great opportunity with an NGO in another country. Does that mean we’re both washed out country hoppers? Perhaps we like following opportunities in this globalized world, is that OK with you? I do hope so.
The focus of this topic seems to be a) $20 an hour being a good hourly rate. As seen a few posts above, the general consensus with our more mature posters is that unless you’re on $20 an hour and being paid for a 40 hour week, that’s a fairly low sum of money. How are hours these days? Anyone getting 100 hours on a monthly basis? Looks like it’s teaching kids on a weekend for ya! b) the arbitrary $2000 sum is decent for a single man, but pretty ordinary to support a family. I can’t see hourly rates going up, but I can see the cost of living and inflation going up, so your money in real terms is decreasing. How much room to move is there in Danang? Given the popularity of the place, I can hardly see employers giving higher rates of pay too easily. I might be wrong, but I think the logic is right.
You mention $1000 a month savings. Woopee do man! How much is it for a visit home with flight? How much with a wife and family in tow? A new phone? Hospital and dental bills; how much are you really left with after a year?
My comments in relation to Vietnam stand. It’s a fun place for a while, but the money isn’t really there to support a Western style middle-class lifestyle. Nor is it enough to support a family, unless you want to live on the Vietnamese side of lifestyle. You mention eating out every day; forgive me, but would that happen to be $1.50 noodles, or eating quality food in a restaurant with AC with a nice bottle of wine? I think I know the answer to that. I mentioned a generally poor education system, a very poor public hospital system, generally low wages, there is poor sanitation, drinking water, pretty much zero freedom of speech, a corrupt government, poor emergency services, massive domestic violence, China throwing its weight around, floods, should I continue? Are you saying those things equate to a high quality of life? There’s a little more to life than street food and bia hoi.
For the record, I do happen to know the value of money in Asia. I also know the cost of maintaining a Western lifestyle. DO you get it?? Maintaining a Western lifestyle on a low wage is my point. I am not from money; however, I do have my standards and eating street food on a plastic chair sure gets old after a while. I also want to live in a Western standard apartment. How much of your monthly wage is left after all of that? Western standard. And I don’t mean some dinky Vietnamese style, cramped bedsit or crappy house. A house with modern facilities, or did you grow up in a dirt-floored shack and anything better than that is fantastic? Given your circumstances growing up, I'm sure anything better than that is seen as a quality life.
Perhaps we live in different worlds. You’re content to be saving any kind of money, and you’re more than happy living cheaply, and accepting the B grade standard of living on a modest wage that is the reality for most EFL teachers in Vietnam ( I know, RMIT pays well). Most TEFELers in Vietnam are cheapskates, this is born out of necessity, rather than by choice. Average wage for a TEFELer is….? Furthermore, you’re planning on starting a family on a modest salary; I wish you all the best….
Lastly, you seem to have backed down from your previous statement in regards to not “making it” unless you’re in an office by 40. I have reason to believe that there are teachers with a 10 times better teaching technique than me, a 20 times better linguistic knowledge, a heap more experience and who are much older than I am who still teach in a classroom. You’re insulting them more than me with your comments. |
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LettersAthruZ
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 466
Location: North Viet Nam
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:57 am Post subject: |
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HA!
Kurtz! Still winding 'em up, I see! 
You crack me up, mate..... |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Ah the internet. Where people argue in circles, conveniently ignore things that don't support their argument, make the same accusations and assumptions that have be answered and refuted several times thinking it will somehow lend them some credibility, and use ad hominims and straw men arguments. Because if you can put words into another person's mouth, he'll say exactly what you want.... 
A bit sad to see it in a place where educators are supposed to discuss things civilly. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| LettersAthruZ wrote: |
HA!
Kurtz! Still winding 'em up, I see!
You crack me up, mate..... |
I wish I could be so easily impressed .
Anyway, I know the above post by kurtz wasn't addressed to me, but I'll just quote an old post of mine [edited slightly because it was a locked thread and I had to use copying and pasting] which I believe is relevant. God knows, the topic of money seems to come up here regularly enough. I've done this several times before on this forum and I think the reasons for this are spelt out fairly clearly below [by the way, I was addressing another poster in the original post and I am not singling kurtz out]:
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
Anyway, this tired old debate has been covered ad nauseum on this forum before and I, for one, intend to sit this one out. No one is claiming that Vietnam is the best place for savings, however, this is a very important topic for readers considering moving to Vietnam and I'd hate people to be misinformed.
Alternatively, I'd recommend readers checking out this relatively recent thread where the issue of money was discussed at length:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=98989
One of the posts in the above link included an old post of mine (from memory, about two years old) which I will once again quote below:
"The OP, like many who read this forum, is interested in possibly coming to Vietnam. I'll give a rundown of my own personal circumstances and others can draw whatever conclusions they want from it. Naturally, this is just one person's experience.
Firstly (and this is important) - I am lucky in that I work for a good school. Good management, good resources and [mostly] conscientious and respectful students. My qualifications are not electrifying - got a BA (Hons) and a CELTA (also about two-thirds of the way through a PhD). I had no TEFL experience prior to Vietnam although I did teach history for a year at an university.
Pay/Work Hours: Earn $24 an hour. Teach 18 a week (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday). Unless I am doing covers (which happens), I have four day weekends every week Cool. Gross salary is just over $1,800 a month but this excludes money from covers. After health insurance and tax I would typically have left over around $1500 (and this is conservative). Naturally I could make extra money by getting a second job, requesting more hours or by doing privates, but I don't need to so I don't.
Outgoings: Like I said in an earlier post, I pay $450 a month for accommodation which includes everything so I don't clean and I don't do laundry. Nor do I cook (not very good at it, don't enjoy it and I don't have to). There is a wide selection of very good restaurants within easy walking distance of where I live and I eat out for all three meals a day. Once again, to be conservative, I'll overstate it and put the price of food per day at $12. So I spend around $350 a month on eating. In regards to transport, I rent a motor scooter for $50 a month and it costs me about $10 extra for petrol.
So all up my general monthly living experiences are around $860. That leaves around $640 for entertainment and savings. Don't forget, I don't work that many hours, I live extremely comfortably, the above figures are conservative and I could easily earn more and spend less if I wanted.
Visas: Never had a problem with this myself (although I don't doubt others have). Work is currently in the process of organising (and paying for) a residency card - so no problems there.
Holidays: Under my contract, holidays are unpaid, but that's OK. Get two weeks off a year during Tet and another week during the May holidays. You can get more time off if you want it and I am planning on taking an extra five weeks off during this year. Also I have my four day weekends - so if I want to go for a few days to Singapore, Cambodia, Mui Ne, Hoi An etc, etc, etc - no problem.
Like I said, this is just my own personal circumstances but I am very happy with it. If there are more "competitive" places out there which allow me to enjoy more free time and a better income and lifestyle (with my entry level qualifications) then trust me, I'm all ears."
Like I said, I'm happy to sit this one out and if people disagree then that's their right. However, if anyone does wish to disagree with this post, please kindly address how the facts and figures quoted above are incorrect and I will be happy to reply. As already stated, I believe this to be a very important topic for people considering moving here, perhaps the most important topic, and I think the readership here deserves better than some of the blanket, incorrect, inaccurate, misleading statements that have often historically been made on this forum about this very important issue. |
Just in case anyone wishes to read the entire thread that the above was quoted from:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=103390&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 |
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ieltsteacher102
Joined: 24 Jun 2014
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:25 am Post subject: |
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i have no interest in this dogfight, i am happy in vietnam make a lot of mony and have a wetern style middle class lifestyle on 1500 usd a month can give exact brekdown for the naysayerss and this inclusdes eating westernfood almost every meall im not a rice guy i cook at my apartment drinking loads of beer international health insurrance apartment with poool going to western restaurents 4-6 times month i could go on same lifestyle i had in usa but no car but dont need one if i want one will buy it make 2500- 3000 month teaching ielts courses in evenings and ielts examing at the weekends gf/wife makes 20 million month, we save over 2000 month and spend 1 month year in usa, life couldnt be better, easy to make 2000 usd a month for teacher has degree celta etc dont care about teachers with no qualss etc thats another sport not even in same ballpark lets start being honest about the costs in vietnam and compare appples to apples
take care goota go back to classroom |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| @ sarge I think you can trot out your magnum opus ten years' time and nothing much would have changed apart from the costs rising; I think the hourly rate wouldn't have changed much. |
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ieltsteacher102
Joined: 24 Jun 2014
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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the joy of teaching ielts doing the reading mock test now and my gf wife corrects the tests and they pay me for this! but hate the writing tests
@kurtz ok wages may not increase and inflation will increase ok agree it may happen didnt that happen in the westernn world usa in 70s moved from a manufacturing/production economy to the financilizationn of the economy and during past 40 years wages have not increased or evan decreased for 80% popoulation in usa thats why as luke said both husband wife have to work now whats the point are you living somewhhers where this wont haoppen please let us know your location i gotta walk around room now looking like im invigilationg test-vietnamese love cheating or soory looking at other studnets papaers, |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
| @ sarge I think you can trot out your magnum opus ten years' time and nothing much would have changed apart from the costs rising; I think the hourly rate wouldn't have changed much. |
Maybe so. It may also be true that those quoted prices may also have gone up slightly, but they were accurate at the time and I'm still very comfortable using them. I've moved house twice since I originally wrote the above post and I'm still renting very nice, serviced accommodation for $450 a month (although I do now pay utilities) and I can still easily get a decent Western meal for under five bucks. The only real significant thing that has changed for me financially over that time is that my income has risen substantially  .
In any event, like I said, if anyone wishes to "...address how the facts and figures quoted above are inaccurate" then they are more than welcome to do so. I have 'trotted out' my "magnum opus" several times and I will keep doing it whilst I think it is relevant and helpful. If anyone thinks it is not accurate, relevant or helpful then, by all means, discredit it. However, no one has done, or even tried, to do that yet.
Besides, I've been an active member of this forum for years [and a lurker for much longer] and there has always been posts lamenting the passing of Vietnam's TEFLing 'Golden Age' and which provided prophetic warnings about how, in the not-too-distant-future, the sky will fall and there will be armies of Western EFL teachers sleeping under bridges and resorting to cannibalism in order to get by  . OK, I'm exaggerating, but, there have definitely been many posts making the case that Vietnam is definitely not a place worth teaching in because the 'good times' were well and truly over. But, from my point of view, I've heard "wolf" being called far too many times on this forum to take it seriously and I'll believe it when I see it.
In regards to anyone reading this now who is seriously planning on moving to Vietnam in ten years' time, (a highly unlikely proposition but anyway), well, anything can happen anywhere in ten years and I'd recommend that they check in here again closer to the date  . |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Ah the internet. Where people argue in circles, conveniently ignore things that don't support their argument, make the same accusations and assumptions that have be answered and refuted several times thinking it will somehow lend them some credibility, and use ad hominims and straw men arguments. Because if you can put words into another person's mouth, he'll say exactly what you want....
A bit sad to see it in a place where educators are supposed to discuss things civilly. |
Indeed. I am glad to see you have accepted the errors in your ways and I will of course accept an apology. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="1st Sgt Welsh"]
| kurtz wrote: |
| @ sarge I think you can trot out your magnum opus ten years' time and nothing much would have changed apart from the costs rising; I think the hourly rate wouldn't have changed much. |
Maybe so. It may also be true that those quoted prices may also have gone up slightly, but they were accurate at the time and I'm still very comfortable using them. I've moved house twice since I originally wrote the above post and I'm still renting very nice, serviced accommodation for $450 a month (although I do now pay utilities) and I can still easily get a decent Western meal for under five bucks. The only real significant thing that has changed for me financially over that time is that my income has risen substantially .
In any event, like I said, if anyone wishes to "...address how the facts and figures quoted above are inaccurate" then they are more than welcome to do so. I have 'trotted out' my "magnum opus" several times and I will keep doing it whilst I think it is relevant and helpful. If anyone thinks it is not accurate, relevant or helpful then, by all means, discredit it. However, no one has done, or even tried, to do that yet.
Besides, I've been an active member of this forum for years [and a lurker for much longer] and there has always been posts lamenting the passing of Vietnam's TEFLing 'Golden Age' and which provided prophetic warnings about how, in the not-too-distant-future, the sky will fall and there will be armies of Western EFL teachers sleeping under bridges and resorting to cannibalism in order to get by . OK, I'm exaggerating, but, there have definitely been many posts making the case that Vietnam is definitely not a place worth teaching in because the 'good times' were well and truly over. But, from my point of view, I've heard "wolf" being called far too many times on this forum to take it seriously and I'll believe it when I see it.
In regards to anyone reading this now who is seriously planning on moving to Vietnam in ten years' time, (a highly unlikely proposition but anyway), well, anything can happen anywhere in ten years and I'd recommend that they check in here again closer to the date .[/quote
Ha! I knew you had a gloat in you; enjoy your sustantial wage increase in the ME.
Let's all meet a decade later and see if wages have gone up and how much inflation has pecked away the spending power of our esteemed TEFEL community not only in Vietnam, but the entire region.
Peck peck peck. |
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spycatcher reincarnated
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Getting a few things done before I leave Vietnam.
Dentistry cost 6,000 usd, believe this would have cost about 25-40,000 usd in the US.
Yesterday had an endoscopy at FV, cost 200 usd, coincidentally my wife had one at a Vietnamese hospital too, cost 15 usd. Believe this costs about 2,500 usd in the US.
Yesterday, took my son to the movies to see Transformers 4, parking was free, total cost was under 5 usd. (Megastar do a 2 for 1 if you pay by Visa card). Not sure what this would cost in the US, but where I am going the parking would cost over 20 usd. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
Ha! I knew you had a gloat in you; enjoy your sustantial wage increase in the ME. |
I wasn't referring to the Middle East and I won't be starting over there for a couple of more months. I was referring to the move from ACET to RMIT. However, I will say that I started off in TEFL in Vietnam with an unrelated degree and a CELTA and now, four years later, I'm now in a much better financial position than before, I have traveled extensively, improved my qualifications and secured employment at a beautiful place where I hope to enjoy substantial vacations and to be able to squirrel away a lot of money. I'm happy enough with that. Maybe my time in Vietnam was not necessarily such a dead-end after all.
| kurtz wrote: |
Let's all meet a decade later and see if wages have gone up and how much inflation has pecked away the spending power of our esteemed TEFEL community not only in Vietnam, but the entire region.
Peck peck peck. |
I think I addressed that adequately in my above post. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
Ha! I knew you had a gloat in you; enjoy your sustantial wage increase in the ME. |
I wasn't referring to the Middle East and I won't be starting over there for a couple of more months. I was referring to the move from ACET to RMIT. However, I will say that I started off in TEFL in Vietnam with an unrelated degree and a CELTA and now, four years later, I'm now in a much better financial position than before, I have traveled extensively, improved my qualifications and secured employment at a beautiful place where I hope to enjoy substantial vacations and to be able to squirrel away a lot of money. I'm happy enough with that. Maybe my time in Vietnam was not necessarily such a dead-end after all.
| kurtz wrote: |
Let's all meet a decade later and see if wages have gone up and how much inflation has pecked away the spending power of our esteemed TEFEL community not only in Vietnam, but the entire region.
Peck peck peck. |
I think I addressed that adequately in my above post. |
*pat pat*
Ummm.....reading comprehension? This is about a long-term commitment to Vietnam with a family on an EFL wage, which isn't necessarily related to your biography, but it is good to see someone with some ambition. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| spycatcher reincarnated wrote: |
Getting a few things done before I leave Vietnam.
Dentistry cost 6,000 usd, believe this would have cost about 25-40,000 usd in the US.
Yesterday had an endoscopy at FV, cost 200 usd, coincidentally my wife had one at a Vietnamese hospital too, cost 15 usd. Believe this costs about 2,500 usd in the US.
Yesterday, took my son to the movies to see Transformers 4, parking was free, total cost was under 5 usd. (Megastar do a 2 for 1 if you pay by Visa card). Not sure what this would cost in the US, but where I am going the parking would cost over 20 usd. |
6000 on an EFL is......... A hell of a lot of money. How many EFL peeps are there with 6000 kin their pocket? It's not sort of thing that needs to be done every day, no?
It's true though that medical tourism is increasingly popular with Westerners, and that Western standard medical facilities and foreign trained doctors can be found in developing countries. It doesn't make a huge case for teaching in Vietnam on 20 an hour though, which I am convinced is quite high for that country.
Why are you leaving Vietnam? |
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