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Listerine
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Posts: 340
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 Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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I know completely different tests, standards, layout, focus, no speaking test etc....blah blah but *in general* roughly what level IELTS band would Chinese CET 4 and CET 6 "graduates" be?? IELTS 4 and 6 also?
I have students who are enrolled in an Australian University (Monash) to start in 2016. They need 6.5 on their IELTS to be accepted, and they currently have all passed CET 4 in China....somewhat curious how far many of them still have to go to get up to par. |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Voyeur wrote: |
| Personally, at least for TOEFL, I've always found listening to be the section least able to be gamed. Sure, as in the old days of the paper TOEFL, you can study a lot of listening and be decent at it without being able to speak much at all. But that took a while. I've yet to see any effective ways for most students to quickly game the listening section and boost their scores in a short period over their actual listening ability. Even for decent students, I don't find that there are many strategies--even legit ones--that are needed for that section (unlike with say reading). Listening questions tend to be straightforward and even easy--you either understood enough of the passage or you didn't. Maybe the kid got lucky? |
I see your point and I don't think it is the norm. Yet, there is no way you can get that lucky! As you know an 8.5 is basically native level. This was a few years back and at the time there were I believe six potential listening exams offered at a time. He worked his butt off, memorizing brain dump answers day and night and obviously the ability to discern what questions were being asked.
You would think the same effort in actually learning English would pay off with say a 6.0 and the actual ability to understand English fairly well. But I mentioned it as it is pertinent as to what many of his "potential" clients believe the key to success is, and how it differs from what an IELTS tutor believes.
As the Chinese governmental VIP told the press before the Olympics, "China now has more people who speak English than America!". He felt it to be true as the Chinese standardized testing confirms it as so.
(I should add as an aside to the listening discussion that my personal impression was that of the four sections tested on IELTS, I generally found the students to have an edge in Listening. This was explained to me by an IELTS examiner due to the high volume of English movies, TV shows and video games most young Chinese spend every minute of their free time on. Makes sense to me.) |
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Welcheronymus
Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Posts: 49
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Capt Lugwash wrote: |
Welcher I think if I am to be honest the students themselves did most of the work. All those who were sent to me had a book listing the topics the examiners would use to select their oral questions from.
It can be laborious but simply asking the same questions in the book randomly and then suggesting improvements or alternative ideas seemed to work. They all had questions they hoped they would be asked and they all had others they were dreading. I concentrated more on the latter obviously. Another important aspect was to praise them and give them confidence in themselves because I believe many candidates become tongue tied in oral exams, when in a relaxed setting there is nothing wrong with their English.
And the boy who had failed five times? He only had one problem so I worked on that and even invited a couple of my best students to have a free lunch with us so as to give their own independent opinions because the lad couldn't or wouldn't believe what I was telling him. The problem was that although his speaking was certainly good enough for 6 or 6.5 he spoke far too rapidly and as a result his pronunciation suffered terribly. I can only assume at his sixth and successful attempt he heeded my exhortations! |
Capt,
Thank you for your reply and description of what you have done. I can say I have been doing some of the things you mentioned, using books and websites for practice questions. I think there is something to your point that students can speak well at school and then getting nervous when they take the test and get a score lower than they really should. So maybe if I put some more emphasis on encouragement and positive comments to give them confidence that could help. I've read websites from current/former IELTS examiners to see how they give feedback, so maybe I could study that a little more and focus on giving better suggestions for improvement. |
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Welcheronymus
Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Posts: 49
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Pronunciation is a factor, especially for Chinese test-takers. Also, Chinese test-takers can very often try to memorise whole set-pieces, which an examiner can spot a mile away and will immediately cut off the test-taker where possible.
Very often too, I noted, that Chinese test-takers were unfamiliar with the format of the interview. They didn't use the 1 minute prep time for Part 2, and so consequently were unable to keep going for the full two minutes. Unless they recited irrelevant memorised texts.
For Part 3, they tended to have difficulties developing their positions, and were unable to give any justifications for opinions expressed. At best they merely re-stated an opinion.
Of course, things might be vastly different for IELTS examiners in China proper, but this is what I have experienced with Chinese test-takers outside China. |
Sashadroogie,
While I am not an IELTS examiner, I would say your observations of Chinese test-takers outside China are very similar to what I see with my students here in China. Pronunciation, intonation, and speed seem to be big issues for many of the students I teach.
There is also, as you've seen, a predilection towards attempts at memorization of "good" answers or an effort to try to figure out ways to impress/trick the examiner into giving a higher score. For many, the Part 3 questions are a challenge as they struggle with unpredictable, open ended questions. As a teacher, it can be frustrating to try to get them to focus on communicating in English (which I think would be more beneficial) instead of trying to figure out ways to beat the test. |
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Welcheronymus
Joined: 08 Aug 2009
Posts: 49
Location: The Middle Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jimpellow wrote: |
....A fair majority of the present IELTS demand is by students who intend to study in foreign university. If I could guess, I would estimate that 20% come from middle class families and almost all the rest from affluent families.
The middle class students as a whole are better students in terms of motivation and seeing IELTS and/or TOEFL as a barometer of their progress in English. Often their parents have been sold on the falsehood that investing their life savings into a foreign education will ensure success for their child and thus he/she will be able to support them in their retirement.
The affluent students as a whole are quite a different lot. They have usually been underachievers all their lives as it has always been assumed that one day they will run the family factory, etc. No need to work hard as their "lao da" dream will certainly come true. Added to the general lack of motivation by this group are a couple other realities that work against the IELTS instructor... |
Jim,
Those are spot on observations! I've been trying to figure out myself how to describe the learning environment here to new teachers as well as folks back home. Many people come to China thinking students are hard working and then meet that second group. Quite an eye opener. I was caught off guard myself. Thank you for putting it the way you have. |
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Markness
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 738
Location: Chengdu
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Listerine wrote: |
I know completely different tests, standards, layout, focus, no speaking test etc....blah blah but *in general* roughly what level IELTS band would Chinese CET 4 and CET 6 "graduates" be?? IELTS 4 and 6 also?
I have students who are enrolled in an Australian University (Monash) to start in 2016. They need 6.5 on their IELTS to be accepted, and they currently have all passed CET 4 in China....somewhat curious how far many of them still have to go to get up to par. |
My Chinese girlfriend told me that a CET 4 is a very chinglish test that only requires a 90/150 to pass, same with the CET 6. The only people who accept the CET scores are Chinese companies (that aren't very big), and the real big international ones that actually require them to use their chingrish will ask for an IELTS score which is much harder than a CET test. I think a CET 4 is the same as a low level IELTs written test...
Yikes! |
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Capt Lugwash
Joined: 14 Aug 2014
Posts: 346
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| What about TEM? |
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migot
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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This thread has been very helpful so far, thanks a lot!
As somebody pointed out, those rich Chinese kids really seem to not be able to think for themselves. They memorize their way through the TOEFL or IELTS, and pay an agency to write their admission essays. Once abroad, they are unable to keep up with the lectures (hey, who needs actual skills if you have a cerificate!), so they resort to copy and pasting from the internet or get "help" from classmates. Having spent a considerable amount of money on this glorified foreign university degree, they come back to China to discover that nobody even cares that much about this degree any more.
It's kind of sad. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Welcheronymus wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Pronunciation is a factor, especially for Chinese test-takers. Also, Chinese test-takers can very often try to memorise whole set-pieces, which an examiner can spot a mile away and will immediately cut off the test-taker where possible.
Very often too, I noted, that Chinese test-takers were unfamiliar with the format of the interview. They didn't use the 1 minute prep time for Part 2, and so consequently were unable to keep going for the full two minutes. Unless they recited irrelevant memorised texts.
For Part 3, they tended to have difficulties developing their positions, and were unable to give any justifications for opinions expressed. At best they merely re-stated an opinion.
Of course, things might be vastly different for IELTS examiners in China proper, but this is what I have experienced with Chinese test-takers outside China. |
Sashadroogie,
While I am not an IELTS examiner, I would say your observations of Chinese test-takers outside China are very similar to what I see with my students here in China. Pronunciation, intonation, and speed seem to be big issues for many of the students I teach.
There is also, as you've seen, a predilection towards attempts at memorization of "good" answers or an effort to try to figure out ways to impress/trick the examiner into giving a higher score. For many, the Part 3 questions are a challenge as they struggle with unpredictable, open ended questions. As a teacher, it can be frustrating to try to get them to focus on communicating in English (which I think would be more beneficial) instead of trying to figure out ways to beat the test. |
Thanks for the info. I guessed that the students' performance would be much the same inside and outside China, but it is always good to hear from someone firsthand that this is so.
Re Part 3, the IELTS examiner doesn't just ask open-ended questions, as such, but will try to take some idea that the candidate has voiced and turn it into a follow-up question, and 'push' the candidate into justifying their opinion, or providing more detail. But you are absolutely right in describing it as unpredictable. Even the examiners cannot know what way the conversation will develop as this depends largely on the test-taker's contribution.
For example -
Examiner: In what ways do you think that tourism is beneficial for your country's economy?
Candidate: Many ways. New people show new ideas to local culture. Bring new money too.
Examiner: What new ideas to tourists introduce to the country?
Candidate: They show new thinking about... services. New language.
Examiner: You mentioned services. Which kind do you mean?
Candidate: In shops, and restaurants. Customer service.
Examiner: How do new ideas about customer service benefit the economy?
Candidate: Make things better. More efficient.
Examiner: Is the influence of tourism the only way for a particular country to learn how to improve efficiency, do you think?
And so on. Starting from the original question, set in the examiner materials, the examiner follows up on various points made and tries to get the candidate to expand on those points. Even if this moves a little bit away from the original question. The candidate's responses determine this to some degree. In the above example, of course, the candidate, while coherent, isn't expressing too much at all beyond the minimum, and so will be unlikely to get more than band 5 or 6.
This is something I have seen to be fairly common with Chinese test-takers. They seem to be blissfully unaware that they are expected to develop their answers here. And develop them in the abstract. Not just talk about their own experiences. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| This is something I have seen to be fairly common with Chinese test-takers. They seem to be blissfully unaware that they are expected to develop their answers here. And develop them in the abstract. Not just talk about their own experiences. |
And you're blissfully unaware of the distinctions between a language proficiency measure and one for aptitude or intelligence, and more specifically, between receptive and productive skill sets.7 Good User: generally handles language well but with some inaccuracies. Can produce a competent written argument. Can understand abstract reasoning in reading passages.
Follow-up in the speaking component of IELTS is designed to reveal the presence or absence of organization-- broadly, for both speaking and writing-- for claim, basis, and conclusion. What a follow-up does is determine a comprehension of prior word choices (and their nuance) and an appropriate use of phrases.
Much like arguments that the Chinese (due to a convention of memorization) cannot make simple inferences, you've likely wasted a lot of students' time baselessly asserting western chauvinisms about mental processes shared across languages and cultures since time immemorial.
The development of a response to an IELTS prompt can be concretely and plainly accomplished without all the the cultural baggage. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry buravirgil, but you are simply not correct here. Anybody with IELTS examiner training will know which of us is and which of us is not aware of how Part 3 works. Or are you going to claim that IELTS is also 'your lawn' exclusively as well? : )
And I have said nothing about cultural baggage or western chauvinism. That is all your contribution. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Sorry buravirgil, but you are simply not correct here. Anybody with IELTS examiner training will know which of us is and which of us is not aware of how Part 3 works. Or are you going to claim that IELTS is also 'your lawn' exclusively as well? : )
And I have said nothing about cultural baggage or western chauvinism. That is all your contribution. |
You get one ping, and one ping only Sasha.
The speaking component does not measure for development
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| ...in the abstract... |
"In the abstract", or abstract reasoning, is an expectation with a comprehension of reading passages, not an output (productive skill), as the citation of an IELTS band 7 clearly states.
You have either responded too hastily, or disingenuously.
The IELTS is simply a proficiency measure accorded by standards and are of a design to be studied on any university campus, as I have. You have simply made an error in one part of your post. It is true that without current IELTS guides, any learner is disadvantaged as to how to develop a response, but it is not true that the development is served by a character of "abstract" reasoning. Any Internet search will reveal that abstract reasoning is more typically measured by aptitude and intelligence tests and are, naturally, more controversial in their results than a proficiency measure.
Your chauvinism was evidenced by the phrase "in the abstract". You simply don't know to the degree I do how these measures are designed, adapted and evolved.
And that is one ping only...there will not be another. You are too often contrarian, captious and coy to engage in good faith. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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My dear boy, if you have any IELTS training, you'll surely know that Part 3 requires test-takers to discuss topics and develop them in the abstract. As in, not merely relate their own personal experiences. Any IELTS examiner is required to try to steer candidates away from speaking about themselves and to talk about topics in the abstract.
IELTS requires demonstration of this ability for higher bands. If you find this morally suspect, or somehow a stealthy intelligence test based on arrogant Eurocentrism, then take it up with IELTS. I have provided an accurate and truthful account of what examiners are looking for, and ergo what teachers need to help their students demonstrate in an IELTS test.
Cannot be clearer than that for you. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'll make an exception-- cite a basis for your assertion, as I have.
Steering responses away from personal experience is one thing. Demonstrating abstract reasoning as an output is another. Recognition of an abstraction in a reading passage can be demonstrated through a response, but not expected within an output because any rubric or set of attributes is burdened by the subjectivity of imposition(turn taking).
Citation please. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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A basis? A citation? As I have said, take it up with IELTS. It seems to me that you have not actually undergone any IELTS examiner training. Nothing I have written is my assertion. It is an integral part of the training you'll get if you want to become an IELTS speaking examiner.
And incidentally, we are not talking about abstract reasoning as a demonstration of intelligence. You might be, but you are alone there. IELTS requires that test-takers be able to discuss in English depersonalised, abstract topics, develop them, provide examples, justifications, express predictions etc. |
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