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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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 Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:22 am Post subject: |
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Never really liked "tourism" in Thailand, the Land of Scams  |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| Never really liked "tourism" in Thailand, the Land of Scams |
Have you ever been to Jamaica? I have been to both countries and Pataya beach, which has it's charms, doesn't hold a candle to pretty much anywhere in Jamaica as far as scams go.
My experience from landing here to the present day is pretty much criminal compared to Jamaica. Jamaica was at least attempting subtlety. I don't see where Thailand is even in the conversation. Perhaps you can enlighten me before I go there this Tet holiday. |
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:32 am Post subject: |
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I've aways had good luck in Thailand, but I normally dont do the 'backpacker' trail when I go. I've been staying at the same hotel for years and know the staff well. I normally just chill out and enjoy street food, shopping and some bars when in BKK... It's nice being able to walk around and be invisible  |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Vietnamese will rip off the foreigners. But it's usually the lower-class Vietnamese (street vendors, small shop owners, guest house owners). If you stick to the slightly higher class restaurants, hotels, and shopping places, you'll have set prices.
I've vacationed pretty extensively around SE Asia, and have Bali to be the worst in terms of harassing people while walking down the street. They'll jump in front of you, follow you, and sometimes even grab you. Annoying. Thailand wasn't bad at all. Cambodia was similar to Vietnam, but the haggling over prices is much easier there. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Yeah, Vietnamese will rip off the foreigners. But it's usually the lower-class Vietnamese (street vendors, small shop owners, guest house owners). If you stick to the slightly higher class restaurants, hotels, and shopping places, you'll have set prices.
I've vacationed pretty extensively around SE Asia, and have Bali to be the worst in terms of harassing people while walking down the street. They'll jump in front of you, follow you, and sometimes even grab you. Annoying. Thailand wasn't bad at all. Cambodia was similar to Vietnam, but the haggling over prices is much easier there. |
You aren't judging Bali merely on Kuta/ Legian are you? Bali is great; one needs to venture a little further than the tourist ghettos though.
Vietnam is still pretty awesome. A bike tour up past Ha Giang or touring the backcountry of Pu Luong has to touch even the most jaded of travellers.
I am having fun touring Indonesia these days, but heck, the amount if garbage in tourist spots is saddening. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Vietnam doesn't yet have the concept that tourists want to be left alone at certain times, which they kinda get in Thailand. I'd say Thailand is worse for scams, but the thing that puts people off in Vietnam is the constant hassle. It's not just hassling tourists either, it's just the way things work here. How often are you sitting nowhere near a tourist area trying to have some food on the street, only to have someone come up and offer something to you, and then continue to shove it in your face really intrusively for about a minute? It's not just foreigners that get this treatment, and it's not just foreigners that are annoyed by it. I was out with a friend in district 6 the other day, and this woman came up to us and just started loudly reeling off everything she was selling, repeating it over and over right in our faces. Even the people on the tables around us were embarrassed. She only stopped when I did the same back in her face and she didn't know what to do. Now obviously if you go somewhere like Ben Thanh market, that's part of the experience, but if you're trying to relax on a beach in Hoi An, it can completely ruin your trip. Most countries with a big tourist industry get this and put restrictions on hawkers in certain places.
The other issue, of course, is that the cities simply aren't walkable (even streets that obviously should be pedestrianized like Bui Vien), which is a particular issue for tourists, because it puts them at the mercy of taxis, which is another area ripe for scams. Hoi An is the only town that's even attempted to address this, and even their they can't go the whole way, and still allow motorbikes in at certain times of day. So yeah, you get to the main tourist street and you have to walk up the middle of the road because motorbikes are parked on all of the pavements, and then you spend the entire time with people aggressively beeping at you because you're walking on the road. You only have to look at Bui Vien in Saigon to see how the authorities would rather ban walking before they banned motorbikes. There was a massive issue with congestion on that street, because of all the people sitting and drinking in the evening. So what did they do? Ban motorbikes? Of course not, they banned plastic chairs. The stupid thing is I bet half of the people who own businesses there, who would massively benefit from a pedestrianized road, wouldn't support it if it meant they had to walk an extra 100m to their business. |
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Another glowing report. I never made it to Sapa, though did love Dien Being Phu and Mai Chau.
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Sa Pa, the beauty that has turned beast
Thanh Nien News
LAO CAI - Wednesday, March 11, 2015 13:56 Email Print
RELATED NEWS
The poor, cold side of Sa Pa
One-time tourist problem continues to plague Vietnam
Sa Pa to hire foreign consultant for tourism planning
Vietnam PM approves ambitious investment plan for Sa Pa
Vietnam's Sa Pa to lose its natural beauty for a tramway
Street vendors hassle foreign tourists in Sa Pa. Photos credit: Lao Dong
A trip to Sa Pa, a popular resort town in the northern highlands province of Lao Cai, after Tet, the Vietnamese Lunar New Year, on February 19 gave us (and perhaps many other tourists) nothing but huge disappointment.
Breathtakingly beautiful mountains and valleys were infested by new fancy hotels, and the pure mountain air was filled with exhaust fumes.
We were continuously stuck in traffic jams which we thought we had left behind in Hanoi when visiting the town that is situated more than 1,500 meters above sea level.
Worse, while we were getting stuck, we had to suffer from the unpleasant odor of garbage trucks from which slime was oozing constantly. Looking around, we saw many foreigners covering their noses, patiently waiting to get out of the mess. Many locals were obviously annoyed too.
Some people blamed the mess on the fact that it was the peak season, and that more and more Vietnamese traveled by car these days, due to improved living standards and cheaper fuel prices.
Better infrastructure like the Noi Bai – Lao Cai Highway also encouraged people to travel by their personal vehicles more, they said.
On the other hand, the central town of Hoi An, which is more famous and attracts many more tourists, does not subject their guests to such misery.
Sa Pa’s problems are in fact caused by the failure of its tourism authorities.
Even at a height of over 1,500 meters above sea level, Sa Pa has terrible traffic jams.
Taking the town’s traffic for instance, we never spotted police officers or even members of the local urban management team during our stay. Instead, traffic was regulated by tour guides and hotel staff, and the self-managed system inevitably ended up causing many problems.
At many hotels, every ten minutes a 45-seat bus would come to pick up or drop off tourists. Since the streets are narrow, congestion would ensue whenever two large buses showed up at the same time.
Even when there was only one bus, traffic would come to a halt since hotel staff would “order” smaller vehicles to stay off so that the bus could do its job. After finishing its job, more often than not, the bus would have to make a U-turn to leave the street, a process that could take more than 10 minutes.
At hotels that cannot afford decent parking lots, their vehicles and guests’ would be parked on the street outside day and night, taking up half the space, leaving almost no space for vehicles to pass by.
Motorbikes and cars parked in the street
In fact, we discovered in Sa Pa that people can park their vehicles anywhere and anytime, without worrying about having to deal with police or any other law enforcement. Or, the fact that their illegal parking could cause traffic jams or, worse, fatal accidents.
We can never forget mornings that were haunted by hour-long traffic jams on Cau May Street. Since the narrow street is located next to a deep canyon, because of the heavy traffic some vehicles would occasionally be pushed to the edge.
It can be argued that unlawful parking and messy traffic have a lot to do with vehicle users’ awareness, but given such a giant scale of the chaos, local authorities need to be held responsible.
However, sadly, Sa Pa authorities have inexcusably altogether failed their job, ignoring tourists’ safety though tourism is one of the town’s main revenue earners.
All is bad
Garbage trucks operate during the day when streets are crowded
Besides the insufferable traffic, Sa Pa’s tourism also faces many other major problems.
Many people accuse local hotel staff of being either poor – giving them wrong street directions, for instance -- or dishonest, taking their booking but giving their rooms to others who offer higher prices.
At many construction sites, water from unknown sources is all over the street, while tourists often have to suffer from a lack of clean water.
In other parts of the town, people stand along streets and mountain passes, offering tourists roasted, almost blackened, wild animal carcasses without heads. It is not unusual to see people selling even live snakes.
A few years ago local authorities canceled around half of 17 proposed hydropower plants here, following media criticism. But the remaining ones are ravaging a town with once beautiful forests and springs, both of which are gone. Homestay services at ethnic villages have been killed as well, because who is interested in seeing dying lands?
At tourist villages that are still functional, like Hau Thao and Ban Den, ticket booths have been established, charging visitors VND50,000 each. Once the money is paid, no one cares about what tourists do and so vehicles are once again parked everywhere.
It is not that Sa Pa authorities do not do anything to improve tourism.
Souvenir vendors have taken over this observation deck
They built concrete pads on canyon edges as observation decks. But unfortunately the sites have such ugly designs that they do not bring any value, merely act as a blot on the natural beauty.
Moreover, the decks are often occupied by souvenir vendors who aggressively hassle tourists. And kids lie around naked as if to elicit sympathy from tourists and make them part with some money.
It will come as no surprise if foreign tourists, if asked, name the harassment by vendors and beggars as the worst aspect of Sa Pa besides the traffic.
The list of Sa Pa’s problems go on and on, and all of them should not be dismissed as trivial, because they have undeniably affected tourists’ impression on the town that relies so much on their spending.
If the problems continue, we will definitely not return to Sa Pa.
But maybe our and many other visitors’ decision to give up on the town does not matter to local authorities because so far they have shown no inkling that they care about the disturbing situation.
Original Vietnamese story can be found here on Lao Dong news website
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Anyone been to Sapa lately? Is it this bad now? |
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LarueLarry
Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Went to Sa Pa 10 years ago and the harassment from the girls hawking goods was enough to make me not ever want to return. |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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cb400
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos
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EFL Educator
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 988
Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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YES but EFL job seeking teacher tourists will still keep coming to Vietnam...to find work teaching English!  |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| EFL Educator wrote: |
| YES but EFL job seeking teacher tourists will still keep coming to Vietnam...to find work teaching English! |
Many young tourists travelling SE Asia will refresh their cash on hand teaching English. It's more difficult in VN than other SE Asian countries because of the required TEFL/TESOL in addition to a bachelors degree as opposed to just a bachelors in other SE Asian countries (so it is quite legal) but young people can be very resourceful.
Teaching pronunciation and maybe pronouns and a few basic verbs is hardly beyond the capabilities of any recently educated, travel hardened westerner.
It's certainly not beyond the expectations of the schools that teach children. That might be why a bachelors is all that's required to teach in most SE Asian countries. Most jobs are teaching children.
I am not recommending this, just stating the reality of the situation. |
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nomadic_meow
Joined: 07 Apr 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:45 pm Post subject: Sapa |
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| Quote: |
Anyone been to Sapa lately? Is it this bad now? |
I was in Sapa in February (which is not a good time weatherwise, so only for a couple days).
The hawkers were still everywhere, even on very cold mornings. Some of them were pushier than others, but yes they will follow you all over.
Some will give you some tiny freebie and demand a promise to "think about it" etc, but down comes hell's wrath if you don't buy from them later. Blah blah, I'm sure it happens all over but it can be annoying all the same.
I didn't spend a lot of time really wandering town but it's not a giant city, so I don't quite understand all the traffic references. Many streets are just not very wide to begin with and they're often winding along hillsides. So sure where there's construction (there was some on my guesthouse street) or a big tour bus comes through and hangs around, it's going to seem crowded and noisy. But you have to understand we're probably talking about smaller streets to begin with. It's not necessarily a thousand vehicles, although I can't say about summer when more people are there. Maybe it is then?
Shop around on the guesthouse front. I stayed at Luong Thuy Family Guesthouse (downhill from the center, rec'd in Lonely Planet) and they were very pleasant and did excellent meals (if you don't mind waiting a little while). |
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