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Dealing with anger in VN
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cb400



Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so where does this honking habit come? Lots of capitalist countries chase the dollar but do not have terrible manners we see here?
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EFL Educator



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Location: Cape Town

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy question..the answer is simple is it means "Get Out Of My Way" in Vietnamese...again "Ultra Neo Capitalism" has many faces...but in Vietnam it is no longer a matter of saving one's face whilst driving on the roads or streets of Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh City !!!!! Shocked

Last edited by EFL Educator on Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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TRH



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
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Location: Hawaii

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cb400 wrote:
Okay, so where does this honking habit come?
I was told once by a TA that honking when you pass someone is actually required by law. Fortunately that's not enforced! As cb400 alluded to, the worst is the guy in the SUV whose honk really says "I am rich so get out of my way." when a slight toot would do.

I think a big traffic problem is that a lot of auto, taxi, and small truck drivers drive as if they were driving a motorbike, which is probably how they go home at the end of the day. That is, they continuously cross the center line, come out of side streets without even looking let alone pausing, and feel entitled to pass anyone who is not going fast enough for them. These things may be aggravating when done by motorbike drivers, but they are downright dangerous with four wheels and 500kg.

The 20 year old delivery truck drivers are a menace but the guys running the semis on the main highways seem professional. Sadly at times, motorbike drivers seem to think it is reasonable to zip around in front of them. I used to own a 10 ton truck and when you drive something like that you develop a new respect for the idea of keeping distance to the car in front. Big trucks take some distance to stop. Here that distance would be filled with opportunistic motorbikes.
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2229
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:17 am    Post subject: Re: Dealing with anger in VN Reply with quote

cb400 wrote:
I've been back in VN for about 2 months and I am finding myself getting more and more angry at stuff that never bothered me before. For example the traffic. It is driving me nuts and I have been taking taxis for the last while to avoid and confrontations with idiots. This means I am walking more, and I now have to deal with the idiots who drive on the side walk and have the nerve to honk like crazy if you are impeding their way. It takes every ounce of self control to stop myself drive just kicking them off (did once) or just slapping them like a red headed step child. The lack of manners and respect in unbelievable and I really feel the angry welling up somedays.

Now I am not really working much (its my choice) and I know too much time on your hands can be bad, and I am not ready to go home as I am working on some projects.

Just wondering what everyone does when the little stuff really starts getting to you... knowing violence is never the answer thought I do believe there is a lot of people out there could use a slap.... I guess myself included time from time.


I have a friend who has beaten the p!ss out of a few motobike drivers that struck him on the sidewalk...

Normal feelings/reactions coming from a Western country, or any country that has any sense of common courtesy and/or decency when driving...


Last edited by Prof.Gringo on Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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cb400



Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its good knowing I am not the only one with these feelings. Very Happy
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I'm With Stupid



Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cb400 wrote:
I've been driving a car around this week and realized that 90% of the honking is just unnecessary and seems just about some *beep* who wants everyone to clear out of their way... even when the traffic can't move idiots still honk thinking it will help... where does this stupid habit come from?

I'm completely convinced that if honking was banned (or more accurately, if every horn in the city was removed from its vehicle), the roads would be much safer. As you say, the vast majority of honking is completely unnecessary, but also pretty common is the idea that honking your horn gives you licence to do something completely stupid. People reach for the horn before they reach for the brake. Of course, it's possible that they'll still do all of the same stupid things without beeping. But I find that the incessant honkers are frequently the most nervous drivers. If someone beeps at a crossroad, I always go first, because I know they're hesitating.

But yeah, I know what you mean about being told to "drive like the locals." Don't be so stupid. The locals die at a horrendous rate, and I don't intend to join them. Obviously it's good to be aware of driving patterns, but I'm not going to stop using my mirrors just because no-one else does.
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I'm With Stupid



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cb400 wrote:
Okay, so where does this honking habit come? Lots of capitalist countries chase the dollar but do not have terrible manners we see here?

I dunno. From what I've seen, China and India aren't exactly much different. Thailand's a bit better. But you've got to think about the volume of traffic too. In terms of number of vehicles (and therefore number of horns), Vietnamese cities must outrank any other cities in the world. Not only that, but motorbikes definitely lend themselves to breaking the law. Even in Western countries, motorbikes break the law far more than cars. And cyclists more again. I think there's something about a small, maneuverable, personal form of transport that makes people think it's not a big deal to go the wrong way. Whereas a car driver knows he's gonna cause problems.

I think there's a little bit of culture involved too. When have you ever seen a Vietnamese parents say "get out of the way of that man" to their kids? I might have seen it once or twice, but generally, they stand by as their children shove their way into the lift before anyone's got out. I don't think it's a deliberate "I don't care about anyone else" attitude, you just don't see the sense of being in the way that most kids in the UK at least have drilled into them from birth (which isn't the same thing as saying kids aren't taught to be polite, they just have different ways of doing it). And that's particularly prevalent on the roads. Most people won't think twice about cutting across an entire lane of traffic, rather than waiting for 30 seconds for the lane to clear. Or stopping in the middle of the road because you've gone the wrong way. And also there's just the simple fact that the driver training in most developed countries is terrible. The driving test actually requires you to drive incorrectly ffs.
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Oh My God



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cb400 wrote:
Okay, so where does this honking habit come? Lots of capitalist countries chase the dollar but do not have terrible manners we see here?


From my VN wife and friends, they say it comes from being safe and the diligence to warn others of where you're at. In our home countries we honk to tell the other they're doing something wrong but not here. I guess if you're going down some country road this might make sense but in a city environment - I just don't understand it.

From my observations, there are a LOT of differences not just traffic and these VN mentalities CAN drive you a little nuts IF you let it. So why let it? Adapt, you probably will do a compromise of that anyway so that's why the partial quote of "When in Rome". I used to get into some accidents on my motorbike BUT since I've changed - NONE! and yes, I've driven on sidewalks and a few other VN stunts but I've never really changed to incessant honking

Don't let it drive you nuts, you can't change them so modify your attitude - you'll sleep better
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EFL Educator



Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes CAPITALISM can drive you nuts....that's why there are so many HONKERS on the streets of Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City......it's ALL about MONEY!!!!!!!!!!! Shocked
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2229
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm With Stupid wrote:
cb400 wrote:
Okay, so where does this honking habit come? Lots of capitalist countries chase the dollar but do not have terrible manners we see here?

I dunno. From what I've seen, China and India aren't exactly much different. Thailand's a bit better. But you've got to think about the volume of traffic too. In terms of number of vehicles (and therefore number of horns), Vietnamese cities must outrank any other cities in the world. Not only that, but motorbikes definitely lend themselves to breaking the law. Even in Western countries, motorbikes break the law far more than cars. And cyclists more again. I think there's something about a small, maneuverable, personal form of transport that makes people think it's not a big deal to go the wrong way. Whereas a car driver knows he's gonna cause problems.

I think there's a little bit of culture involved too. When have you ever seen a Vietnamese parents say "get out of the way of that man" to their kids? I might have seen it once or twice, but generally, they stand by as their children shove their way into the lift before anyone's got out. I don't think it's a deliberate "I don't care about anyone else" attitude, you just don't see the sense of being in the way that most kids in the UK at least have drilled into them from birth (which isn't the same thing as saying kids aren't taught to be polite, they just have different ways of doing it). And that's particularly prevalent on the roads. Most people won't think twice about cutting across an entire lane of traffic, rather than waiting for 30 seconds for the lane to clear. Or stopping in the middle of the road because you've gone the wrong way. And also there's just the simple fact that the driver training in most developed countries is terrible. The driving test actually requires you to drive incorrectly ffs.


An article a while back said there are are an average of 25 road deaths per day in VN. Doesn't include the non-fatal accidents.

http://www.thanhniennews.com/society/traffic-accidents-kill-25-people-every-day-in-vietnam-33724.html

But how does VN compare worldwide?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

How many of those are from "bad" driving habits? Anybody who is in a major city (HCMC, Hanoi) can just ride the public city buses and go for a front seat. How many motobike drivers cut the bus off? Sure, it's obviously a very dangerous maneuver, but folks can't seem to wait 30 seconds, as you said. I have seen a half-dozen people dead from motobike wrecks, most of them simply driving too fast (mot, hai, ba DEAD!) flew off the bike as it stopped suddenly and then slammed into a lamp post for example, dead before their body hits the pavement. I was in D-7, HCMC one day taking the bus back to D-1 and I saw a truck that had just ran over a bicyclist, an American EFL teacher, about 55, on his way to school, the truck ran right over him, he was dead under the truck, and his VNese wife (widow) was sobbing, screaming, yelling at the truck driver, hitting him...

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/society/84037/hcmc--american-teacher-dies-under-truck-wheels.html

I have several friends who have switched over to taking public buses in HCMC after having road accidents while on their motobikes. The VNese traffic cops pull over people for not using their turn signals but ignore far greater violations of traffic laws which endanger public safety.
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Prof.Gringo



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Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:03 am    Post subject: Re: Dealing with anger in VN Reply with quote

cb400 wrote:
I've been back in VN for about 2 months and I am finding myself getting more and more angry at stuff that never bothered me before. For example the traffic. It is driving me nuts and I have been taking taxis for the last while to avoid and confrontations with idiots. This means I am walking more, and I now have to deal with the idiots who drive on the side walk and have the nerve to honk like crazy if you are impeding their way. It takes every ounce of self control to stop myself drive just kicking them off (did once) or just slapping them like a red headed step child. The lack of manners and respect in unbelievable and I really feel the angry welling up somedays.

Now I am not really working much (its my choice) and I know too much time on your hands can be bad, and I am not ready to go home as I am working on some projects.

Just wondering what everyone does when the little stuff really starts getting to you... knowing violence is never the answer thought I do believe there is a lot of people out there could use a slap.... I guess myself included time from time.


For anger issues: Find a nice pagoda, I prefer one that has a gong-banging volunteer or monks chanting, in lieu of those, recorded chants/mantras or if the pagoda is quiet enough, just the aroma of incense as it wafts threw the air carrying the peace of Buddha with it... A Di Da Phat!
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cb400



Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 274
Location: Vientiane, Laos

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how many of these deaths are due to impatience and stupidity? (Not the teacher, I read about that.. feel really bad for his family..could happen to any of us. Anyone know what happened? Did the truck run a red light or something else?)

Driving a car here was an eye opener and a large percentage of the population just don't seem to think or give a shit. Motorbikes would race up beside you on the right only to cut in front of you turning left at the last second inches in front of your bumper? Why not just go behind and have less risk? Not only is it dangerous for them, it impedes traffic as you need to slam the brakes to avoid them!

I personally believe that 90% of the traffic jams and bottlenecks are caused by stupid behaviour like this and not (as much) the number of people on the road. For example, when people are stopping for a red light instead of stopping behind the traffic they are now pulling up to the line on the OPPOSITE side of the road...blocking all the people turning left from the right cross road. Then the light turns green and all these assholes are trying to cut back in front of the people in the correct lane... this amazing stupidity is being repeated on the other side so all these idiots meet in the middle of the intersection in an all might clusterfukt.

Many people blame the number of bikes and cars in the city for the traffic and YES it does play a part, but I think the most significant issue is the WAY people drive. The flow of traffic would be so much better if the average driver wasn't so selfish, belligerent, ignorant and stupid and everyone's standard of living would improve. This new metro is going to make no difference to traffic as there is no effort in trying to change the way people drive and act and most VN feel it is their personal freedom to get on a bike and do what ever they want, when they want.
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Prof.Gringo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
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Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!

PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cb400 wrote:
I wonder how many of these deaths are due to impatience and stupidity? (Not the teacher, I read about that.. feel really bad for his family..could happen to any of us. Anyone know what happened? Did the truck run a red light or something else?)

Driving a car here was an eye opener and a large percentage of the population just don't seem to think or give a shit. Motorbikes would race up beside you on the right only to cut in front of you turning left at the last second inches in front of your bumper? Why not just go behind and have less risk? Not only is it dangerous for them, it impedes traffic as you need to slam the brakes to avoid them!

I personally believe that 90% of the traffic jams and bottlenecks are caused by stupid behaviour like this and not (as much) the number of people on the road. For example, when people are stopping for a red light instead of stopping behind the traffic they are now pulling up to the line on the OPPOSITE side of the road...blocking all the people turning left from the right cross road. Then the light turns green and all these assholes are trying to cut back in front of the people in the correct lane... this amazing stupidity is being repeated on the other side so all these idiots meet in the middle of the intersection in an all might clusterfukt.

Many people blame the number of bikes and cars in the city for the traffic and YES it does play a part, but I think the most significant issue is the WAY people drive. The flow of traffic would be so much better if the average driver wasn't so selfish, belligerent, ignorant and stupid and everyone's standard of living would improve. This new metro is going to make no difference to traffic as there is no effort in trying to change the way people drive and act and most VN feel it is their personal freedom to get on a bike and do what ever they want, when they want.


About the American teacher who was run over by the truck: I talked to a good-friend about it, and he used to live in D-7 and rode the same streets, he said it's just an incredibly dangerous intersection, he said it would have been very easy to not pay attention, for even a split-second and the trucks turn the corner at a high rate of speed, it can all happen in just a moment, no more chances or second-guesses.

I also agree that stupidity and impatience play a huge role in the driving culture and accidents/deaths here. Also, there is a strong belief in fate/destiny in VNese culture, as can be seen by the VNese girls who like to put their hands over the eyes of their boyfriend as he races at high-speeds... Add alcohol into the mix and it's a surprise there aren't more road deaths here... Driver education is nill and the police don't even have a nationwide criminal database. So, people aren;'t really being held responsible for what they do while driving.

I have also heard that driving a motobike intoxicated isn't even a criminal offense... Anyone else have info on that?
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EFL Educator



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

During socialism and the Vietnam War the Vietnamese were disciplined drivers (or riders) and had ethics and good morals. Embracing CAPITALISM COMPLETELY changed ALL of this as well as their BEHAVIOR...the people have become extremely money hungry, greedy, selfish and uncaring as well as undisciplined on the roads/steets toward s their fellow man (or woman). There is only one solution to this traffic nightmare and horrible road driving cars or riding motor bikes.......GO BACK TO SOCIALISM!!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked
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I'm With Stupid



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prof.Gringo wrote:
I have also heard that driving a motobike intoxicated isn't even a criminal offense... Anyone else have info on that?

No, it's definitely illegal. The police have breathalyzers now. Rigged breathalysers, but breathalysers nonetheless.
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