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currentaffairs

Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 828

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:07 pm Post subject:

Double post Last edited by currentaffairs on Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

esl_prof

Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:38 pm Post subject:

Fitzgerald wrote:

esl_prof wrote:

...do the values we bring to the table positively impact the institutions and cultures where we choose to work?

I haven't felt so, in the United States or internationally, and clearly, that has been a disappointment to me. Not that I was seeking to "change the world," I hope I'm not that naive, but it has been a real eye-opener to me, the extent to which educational systems merely reinforce the existing socio-economic structures and inequities . . .

These are all excellent points, Fitzgerald, and they echo many of my own observations from my years teaching in the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, and the Bahamas.

My thinking behind my original statement, however, was more along the lines of how we as English teachers unwittingly become complicit with educational systems/practices that, as you so eloquently suggest, simply reenforce existing socio-economic structures and inequities.

In Puerto Rico, to name one example, where there is a long history of English language education being forcibly imposed on the local education system, I as a North American was the face of Empire every time I walked into the classroom. In some instances, I was hired over other better qualified local candidates simply because I "looked" like an "authentic" native speaker of the language (as if my accent from Flyover State were any more authentic that that of a Puerto Rican raised in the Bronx). My teaching years also happened to coincide with the tenure of a pro-statehood governor who, at every possible instance, wanted to use the public eduction system to further his English language learning agenda in hopes of getting all his ducks in a row for a second statehood referendum (there were two during his eight years in office). While in principle, I had no objections to the fact that some Puerto Ricans aspired to U.S. Statehood and, in general, think improving foreign language education is a good idea regardless of what language or what country we're talking about, this situation highly politicized English language education in Puerto Rico. And did so, I would argue, at the expense of students. Amongst my own first year college students, I noted that very few of them could spell common Spanish words correctly, let alone string together a coherent sentence in Spanish. Most would have been much more successful in English had their previous education given them a much stronger foundation in their native Spanish.

Ultimately, I moved on, not feeling that it was really my place as a teacher to either be getting involved in what were essentially local political issues (that, in many regards, impacted my classroom) or sitting back, feigning neutrality, and being complicit with the whole injustice of the situation.

I could, of course, make similar remarks about the other Caribbean countries where I've taught. But I think Puerto Rico's unique situation as a U.S. colony makes the injustices there a bit more obvious than in countries that have enjoyed a bit more self-determination. I assume, of course, that many on these Mexico forums could share similar stories about not being comfortable with complicitness in reenforcing social inequities.

While I opted to leave Puerto Rico (and, eventually, the Caribbean entirely), in part, because of the disconnect between my work life and my personal values, part of my frustration was that as a norteamericano I carry a lot of baggage associated with the U.S. neocolonial agenda and unwittingly am often complicit in promoting that agenda even though, as an educator, I try to buck the tide and work against that.

I realize that I haven't very clearly articulated what I want to say here, at least not as clearly as I'd like, but I hope the general gist is clear. Again, as English teachers, we simply don't have enough of these sort of conversations either at the teaching training level or in subsequent professional development. I appreciate those of you have stepped out and weighed in on this topic. Thanks for sharing!

esl_prof

Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 2:49 pm Post subject:

currentaffairs wrote:

On the personal values front, I really think we create our own reality.

Absolutely!

Having worked for a variety of education and social service programs, both secular and faith-based, in both the U.S. and the Caribbean, I have regrettably concluded that all of them--regardless of how progressive sounding they may be--are ultimately beholden to what the theologian Walter Wink refers to as the "Domination System." What little bit of good that such organizations are able to get away with doing is, as MotherF suggests, simply letting "a few poor people through on purpose because it justifies the world view that the poor are poor because they want (or, I would add, deserve) to be."

I've long since given up trying to work "outside" of the system but, instead, seek to find places within the system that give me enough space to create my own reality, even if that reality is sometimes just confined to the four walls of my own classroom.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." I don't think we'll get anywhere close to the other end of the arc during my lifetime, but I'll keep doing what I can to nudge things a little bit further along.

Fitzgerald

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 224

Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 3:42 pm Post subject:

esl_prof wrote:

While I opted to leave Puerto Rico (and, eventually, the Caribbean entirely), in part, because of the disconnect between my work life and my personal values, part of my frustration was that as a norteamericano I carry a lot of baggage associated with the U.S. neocolonial agenda and unwittingly am often complicit in promoting that agenda even though, as an educator, I try to buck the tide and work against that.

Inadvertently promoting agendas that one is uncomfortable with can happen in many ways. For example, I know teachers in Korea who stopped teaching in Korean public schools after one year because they were deeply uncomfortable with the (fully legal) corporal punishment they saw going on in front of them in classrooms, and did not wish to appear to be giving their assent to it.

philipjmorgan42

Joined: 08 Feb 2013
Posts: 30

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:32 am Post subject:

BadBeagleBad wrote:

I would just like to add one comment here, food for thought. While pay is low for someone from the US/Canada/UK, etc., when you compare it to what you would earn in a similar job in your home country. It is NOT low pay for Mexicans with similar, or sometimes more, education, doing a similar job. I have relatives who work in public schools and while they have a good benefits package, stable jobs, etc., they make less than half of what I do - one with over 20 years of experience, and one with 12 years of experience. The first one is a normalista, the second has a college degree and a post grad certificate. Not sure why people come from other countries thinking they are somehow going to make more money than locals, and often with less training. Lots of people think that just being able to speak English is all they need and have no interest in learning to be an effective teacher, yet expect high pay.

I see this forum has now gone in a completely different direction but I just wanted to give my 2 cents worth about this point. I fully agree that what language schools pay would not be considered low for locals. When I started working free-lance, giving classes in companies and teaching privately, at times I felt bad about what I was earning compared to local teachers. 20 000 plus monthly is probably around 3 times what most public school teachers earn. And working at a school is far more difficult and stressful than what I was doing.
The key thing for me is the mindset people have about 'native speakers' or 'native teachers.' Almost everywhere people will prefer to hire a native than a non-native to teach the language. This is a mixed blessing. For us as natives it means we have a rare and valuable commodity and that is why we can demand higher salaries than locals.
However, as the OP notes, there are lots of people out there who as teachers are really no better than frauds. People who aren’t serious about teaching English and just do it to be able to live abroad, without experience and qualifications, unsuited to teaching, and often teaching a foreign language in a Spanish-speaking country even though they themselves are unable to string together a sentence in Spanish.
I would be interested to hear what people think about how common this type of teacher is in Mexico. I ran into a few and can only say that I felt sorry for their students. This is where the mentality Mexicans have about native teachers is bad for them. Just because someone speaks English like a native doesn’t mean they are an asset to a school or should get paid more than a local teacher.
However for those of us who are serious about teaching I still stand by my initial point about language schools. If you are an experienced, qualified native teacher and speak some Spanish, there are much better options out there. Get your own students. Teach them well and charge accordingly. Or get a university job…

Fitzgerald

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 224

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:51 am Post subject:

philipjmorgan42 wrote:

Well stated. My one quibble, and I admit this is self-serving, is with the insistence on knowing Spanish at the start. I don't think this is necessary at all. After four years, my spoken Spanish is still bad, alas (mea maxima culpa!), but since I never use spoken Spanish in a class setting, beyond a stray word or two, I haven't found this to be a problem. I have taught all levels from basic to advanced; I have taught in universities, prepas, and language schools; I have taught privates. I have taught English as a subject, and I have taught other academic subjects in English. I have taught in three different cities, from cosmopolitan (Mexico City, Queretaro) to completely not so (Culiacan).

No one would expect an ESL teacher at any level in Korea to possess spoken Korean. Ditto in China, Japan, Vietnam, Russia, Turkey, and throughout the Middle East; the local languages are good to have, especially for the purposes of one's life, but they are not necessary for teaching, and may even get in the way of it.

I believe in an immersive approach. Most employers I have worked for have insisted that I use Spanish as little as possible, if at all. The problem with relying on teaching the new language through the medium of the local language is that it is all too easy to slip into the local language 80% of the time. I have seen this with Mexican teachers of English time and time again.

At Tec Prepa in Culiacan, depending on the academic level, certain subjects were required to be taught in English. History of philosophy, interestingly, was taught in English at ALL levels, and that was one of my subjects. My supervisor was very pleased that, especially at first, I was completely incapable of using Spanish to explain any of the philosophical concepts. Good, she said; make them learn the ideas in English. She tore her hair out over Mexican teachers who taught the philosophy classes virtually 100% in Spanish, but she was limited in how many English native speakers she could hire.

esl_prof

Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt

Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject:

Fitzgerald wrote:

Excellent example!!!

BadBeagleBad

Joined: 23 Aug 2010
Posts: 1186
Location: 24.18105,-103.25185

Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:36 pm Post subject:

Fitzgerald wrote:

esl_prof wrote:

...do the values we bring to the table positively impact the institutions and cultures where we choose to work?

Hence, no one with even a smidge of social, economic, or political power is invested in that system.

The private schools do not even offer extensive scholarships. At Tec Prepa in Culiacan, maybe one or two students per year received a scholarship, and the institution thought it was being mighty beneficent in granting those. At Colegio Peterson in Mexico City, a cash cow of a "school" if ever there was one, a handful of students would be considered for up to a half-scholarship, but no one could get more than that, and Peterson is a ridiculously expensive school.

The American School Foundation in Mexico City is an exception to this pattern; that school does offer plenty of scholarships. But it is an anomaly.

One problem is, let me put this right out on the table, is that almost no Mexicans at middle class level or above would feel comfortable with their child attending a school that the children of their servants could also theoretically attend. There are virtually no structures in place for helping the children of those servants and other poor parents to "get ahead."

Totally untrue. Most middle class people I know send their kids to public schools. In the town where I live now, there is not even one private school. There is one the next town over, but it is small, and I doubt that it is better than the public schools here. My neighbors to one side are very well off, they own a ranch, several businesses, etc. and their kids go to the public school here. All my nieces and nephews, with two exceptions, go to public schools and they are all middle class (children of pharmicists, teachers, small business owners, secretaries, etc.). The two who go to a private schoo go to a small school run by an order of nuns. Not sure why they don´t go to the public school. Having said that, not all public schools are the same. One of the ones in my old neighborhood in Mexico City was known to be full of teachers´ kids and was considered excellent. Like schools in the US, they run the gammit from crappy to excellent.

And to go back and add to my previous post, I have always said that working for the public schools is a good option if you are going to stay in Mexico long term, not so much for just a few years. It is a middle class career path though starting pay is not great, it does go up, and as MotherF pointed out, you do your time and get your pension. Not to mention all the other benefits that go with it. In addition, while you have to work for 30 years to get a full pension, even if you only work 15 years you still get a half pension, and the percentage goes up with each additional year that you work.

Fitzgerald

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 224

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:41 am Post subject:

I guess my impression was formed from my experiences in bigger cities (Culiacan, Mexico City, Queretaro), where there are private school options, and any parents who can afford to do so seem to take advantage of them.

BadBeagleBad

Joined: 23 Aug 2010
Posts: 1186
Location: 24.18105,-103.25185

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 2:10 am Post subject:

Fitzgerald wrote:

I guess my impression was formed from my experiences in bigger cities (Culiacan, Mexico City, Queretaro), where there are private school options, and any parents who can afford to do so seem to take advantage of them.

Most of the people I am talking about do live in Mexico City. And I know a lot of people who are middle class who do sent their kids to public schools. As Mother F pointed out, a lot of the private schools that are affordable to middle class parents aren´t any better, some are, just depends. Just like not all public schools are created equal. Just like everywhere. Having taught in both the US and Mexico, I actually think that elementary schools in Mexico have an edge over the US in the basics like reading and math since they tend to spend more time on the basics and less on the extras. I think there is the perception that private schools are somehow better, I certainly know a lot of people who think that. And kids who think it is a big deal to have a uniform that is different from the public school uniforms. But aside from schools, I think what happens at home is even more important, having books around, taking kids to museaums, exposing them to different things, and the parents´ attitude about school and education.

AGoodStory

Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

But aside from schools, I think what happens at home is even more important, having books around, taking kids to museaums, exposing them to different things, and the parents´ attitude about school and education.

Amen to that.

.

MotherF

Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W

Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:38 pm Post subject:

There were a lot of interesting ideas added to this thread over the long weekend, I will try not to write a book!

First as to whether or not you should speak Spanish.

Quote:

My one quibble, and I admit this is self-serving, is with the insistence on knowing Spanish at the start.

I don't think it's necessary when you arrive or when you start teaching and there are certain advantages to forcing the students to communicate in English. BUT, I think a foreign language teacher should be an at least somewhat successful language learner. So you should be actively trying to learn the language of the community you live in, and/or should have learned some other language to a moderate level in the past. This is after all one of the strongest arguments for non-native speaking teachers, they are role models of a successful learner of English. So let's be role models too.
There are also some ways my knowledge of Spanish helps me anticipate student's errors, uncover meaning in what they are trying to say, and check for understanding of complex concepts be they grammatical or lexical. But I concede those could be addressed in other ways by teachers who do not speak Spanish.

The next issue is if English should be forced on the world and what roll do native speaker teachers play in the reality or the perception that English is forced on the world.

Quote:

In Puerto Rico, to name one example, where there is a long history of English language education being forcibly imposed on the local education system, I as a North American was the face of Empire every time I walked into the classroom.

Recently I've been working on a project on issues relating to teaching English to Mexico's Indigenous Language communities (speaking of language being forced on a people!). This has lead me to study and think about the UNESCO's declaration of Linguistic Rights and Mexico's own version. These rights are violated, every day by just about everyone in Mexico. I don't believe that is intentional but there is a lack of awareness especially due to the centuries of marginalization of Indigenous Language communities. Part of their linguistic rights is the right to learn any language that will help them to communicate with the larger world. At this point in history English is the best option for that. This applies to Mexicans who only speak Spanish as well. But we need to do in a nature that respects ALL languages as equals and promotes the importance of linguistic diversity. I've come to believe that EFL teachers are also in a position to help the monolingual Spanish speaking majority become more conscientious about Mexico's many languages.

The next issue is should English speakers be native speakers.

Quote:

The key thing for me is the mindset people have about 'native speakers' or 'native teachers.' Almost everywhere people will prefer to hire a native than a non-native to teach the language.

What advantage do native speakers have? Apart from knowing the language, native speakers know the culture. You often hear "you can't teach the language without teaching the culture." And I have to admit that as a young teacher I didn't understand that statement at all. Because I thought, teaching the culture was like teaching about Halloween. Which is part of it, but that can certainly be eliminated from the curriculum and students will still know English. Now I understand that is not what is meant by saying you can't teach the language without teaching the culture. I'm not sure if it was with years of experience, experience in translation, or becoming a parent of bilinguals or what, that did it as those things happened at the same time, but culture is infused in word choice. And culture explains why you cannot translate something word for word or even just chunk for chunk. Culture is even wrapped up in grammatical choices like when you use present continuous, will, or going to and what subtle message you are sending to your speaker by your choice. Also things like "How come?" A Mexican teacher once asked me what "How come?" meant. When I said it means Why? The teacher didn't believe me. I was able to say, think of it as a contraction for How did that come to be? <---language is culture. A reverse of that is my high school Spanish teacher would always say, "Si, como no." My classmates and I were baffled. When is yes like no? or what is this yes, how no? What it means is Yes, why would I ever not do that, a.k.a. Of course. These are the bonuses native speaking teachers bring to our learning.

A sub point to this is that native speakers, especially at the university level, give students a window into another way of seeing the world.
Now hold on, I'm not, not in any way at all, saying students should see the world the way their English teachers do. But I am saying students should be exposed to and made aware of other ways of thinking. Which brings us to:

Quote:

Ultimately, I moved on, not feeling that it was really my place as a teacher to either be getting involved in what were essentially local political issues (that, in many regards, impacted my classroom) or sitting back, feigning neutrality, and being complicit with the whole injustice of the situation.

I understand this point of view and again, as a young teacher I felt it was not my place to give an opinion and I should be neutral. I no longer believe that, but I have seen the other side of the coin gone wrong. The foreign teacher who walks into the class room believing they will enlighten their students. But I've also meant teachers of philosophy and literature teaching students in their home countries with this same attitude! I want to be clear that I am not advocating this stance. But if you do not let your students know your opinions on important issues concerning their local situation you are depriving them of an educational opportunity. AGAIN not saying they should adopt your opinion, but you will help them see another side of an issue that is affecting them.

This brings us to the public/private issue.

Quote:

The K-12 public / private schism is appalling. No one who can afford any better sends their child to a Mexican K-12 public school. Hence, no one with even a smidge of social, economic, or political power is invested in that system.

I partially agree. I agree in the K-6 and possibly 7-9, but not 10-12. My kids all went to IMSS daycares which covered preschool up to age 4. When it came time for the oldest two to go to first grade we choose public. Like BBB mentioned it was a school that school teachers choose for their kids. (Primaries are federal in Mexico so you can send your kids to any in the city as long as you get a place.) But it didn't work out for use because as a working mother in Oaxaca, they just missed too many days of school so we moved them to private. All around the state of Oaxaca I think parents who can do choose private for this very reason. The quality of education was no better. Again this was a small city with only about 8 options (and none of them cost over 900 a month). Two of which were mass-every-day schools we eliminated without even considering. Secundarias also have issues with strikes, but the public ones tend to be larger and can offer more in the way of extracurricular activities than most private schools around here which tend to have only one class of each grade. In that city private secondary option drop down to only 3 schools. There are only two private high schools one catholic and one secular. But the secular one is known as being the last option for parents whose unruly teens have been kicked out of public schools. The public high schools are no nonsense and kick out any students with discipline problems. I think at this level there is a bigger cultural problem with it not being “required” education and I hear so many parents say, “I will support my child if they wish to continue studying after secondary school.” I've even heard people who are public school teachers say this. NO! A 15 year old can not make that decision for themselves. We moved last year and my kids are back in public school because there are no private options here. I could go on and on about the pros and cons of their current schools, but I won't.

Back to is being a teacher a good job?

Quote:

And to go back and add to my previous post, I have always said that working for the public schools is a good option if you are going to stay in Mexico long term, not so much for just a few years. It is a middle class career path though starting pay is not great, it does go up, and as MotherF pointed out, you do your time and get your pension. Not to mention all the other benefits that go with it.

First of all, I don't believe teaching in a public K-9 school is an option for anyone who is not a Mexican citizen. Second, I don't believe it would be desirable for anyone who is not culturally Mexican either. But it's a decent job for Mexicans with good long term benefits and from what I can tell, public school teachers are a lot better off than Mexican private K-6 school teachers who seem to have little or no benefits.

Are the schools good?

As a parent and a teacher at the end of the line of public education, three realizations have helped me come to terms with education in Mexico. 1) I would probably have just as many, though different, gripes about my kids' schools if they went to school in the US. I'm pretty opinionated when it comes to education and I've butted heads with their teachers and school principals. 2)Mexican Teachers (like Mexican doctors) are used to dealing with parents (patients) who have no clue. There are kids in my son's class whose parents didn't finish primary. There are kids in my daughter's class whose parents don't think girls need education beyond 9th grade. There are NO parents other than me, who have studied educational theory. Teachers talk down to me, because they are used to dealing with these other parents. Not that they SHOULD talk down to the other parents. But they have enough on their plate, so I can excuse that transgression. 3) Mexican public education is young. It didn't exsit before the Revolution, which “ended” in 1920. It was only after that, that the government started to set it up, and due to economics, culture and geography, you know it took so time to get it going. Public education arrived in Oaxaca in the 1940s and the motivation behind it when it did, was not education for education's sake or to better peoples lives. The purpose was nation building. Take people who considered themselves, Zapotecos, Mixes, Mixtecos, or at best Oaxacans, and make them Mexicans. Which brings us to:

Quote:

Having taught in both the US and Mexico, I actually think that elementary schools in Mexico have an edge over the US in the basics like reading and math since they tend to spend more time on the basics and less on the extras.

I don't agree. The curriculum in Mexican primary and preschool does not focus on basics, but is chock full of “Mexico”. From kinder they study Mexican history. From first grade they have the following subjects, Spanish, Math, Natural Sciences, (Mexican)History, (Mexican)Geography, (Mexican)Civics, PE and art. But PE is only once a week and art is once a holiday rolls around. The levels of Patriotism in Mexican primary schools puts the US to shame. The only poetry and literature touched on from K to 5 (the grade my children are currently in) is nationalistic (with the exception of the crap they dedicate to “motherhood” in May.) The country would be much better off if kindergarten was play based and 1-3 only studied Spanish and Math. And I'm not shy about sharing that opinion with everyone I meet, especially my children's teachers.

However, I've gotten so sick of people responding to my opinions with—you don't understand how things work in Mexico. I've lived most of my adult life here. If I don't understand Mexico, I'd like to know where I do understand.

Dragonlady

Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 1:42 am Post subject:

MotherF, you should write a book. Your post is one of the most enlightening ones that I've read here at the Cafe in a few years! DL

bdbarnett1

Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 178
Location: Phnom Penh, Cambodia

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 4:05 am Post subject:

MotherF wrote:

I'm glad you posted this. I was looking at the Tercer Grado curriculum the other day http://www.curriculobasica.sep.gob.mx/index.php/prog-primaria for my daughter, who will be beginning in August. For Social Studies, it says "La Entidad donde vivo"...is that about the state they live in?

I noticed that several of the other subjects (etica, art) are chock full of Mexican culture, like you said. I don't really have a problem with that, per se, but we shall see. I'm not a super-patriotic American, so my kids might end up feeling more Mexican before it's all over.

MotherF

Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W

Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 5:15 pm Post subject:

bdbarnett1 wrote:

MotherF wrote:

Yes. In third grade they get a text book about the state the live in.
And the subject called " civics y etica" is all about Mexican laws they work in a bit about how to be a good friend but not much general ethics. Most teachers don't use the state supplied art books but they are nice actually. There is also a PE book but my kids have never used it when I asked about that they said it was for teachers in rural schools where there isn't a trained PE teacher.
Even in health it's very Mexico specific. In first grade my daughter got an exam question wrong. She was asked to draw a healthy breakfast. She drew yogurt fruit and granola. It was wrong because the answer was eggs beans and tortillas. When I tried to argue with the teacher. She said I shouldn't complain since my daughter got a nine when there were kids in the class who had failed.

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