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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Your posts are descending to personal attack now.
By the way, can you back up your claims that I'm benefitting financially from Celta? Taking into consideration how thick I am. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
Your posts are descending to personal attack now.
By the way, can you back up your claims that I'm benefitting financially from Celta? Taking into consideration how thick I am. |
I apologize for anything that I've said that is or could be perceived as a personal attack.
I am not going to go through your posting history to search for posts where you stated you taught or tested for the CELTA program.
IMHO I made my point long ago. I'm going to sleep now so have at it.
Stop selling CELTAs to newbies. That is reprehensible. You don't need that to get started in this business. You should be ashamed of yourself. Clearly you aren't. Go for it, make a couple bucks off somebody's hardships.
If that's not clear to the reader by now then you have all rights to fleece them for whatever they are worth.
Snake oil salesmanship. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Stop selling CELTAs to newbies. That is reprehensible. You don't need that to get started in this business. |
Oh, there are great numbers of us here who recommend CELTA for newbies. In many places, they DO in fact need it to get started (not only Europe, but Latin America and Anglophone countries, for starters). If the job market demands it, then it's needed. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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"Stop selling Celta to newbies"??? Who is embarrassing themselves again?
As for making a few bucks off people's hardships, I would say that going into any classroom with no training or qualifications is what is reprehensible - even when getting started. Unleashing ignorance on paying students. That should make one ashamed of oneself. Not advising posters that a Cambridge pre-service course will help them do the job they are paid to do.
No snake oil in my posts. However, that may be because I know something about the topic at hand. 'Test for the Celta program', on the other hand, is a phrase which reveals a serious lack of knowledge about what Celta really is. (Sort of like confusing corporate experience with selling sugar...) |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
"Stop selling Celta to newbies"??? Who is embarrassing themselves again?
As for making a few bucks off people's hardships, I would say that going into any classroom with no training or qualifications is what is reprehensible - even when getting started. Unleashing ignorance on paying students. That should make one ashamed of oneself. Not advising posters that a Cambridge pre-service course will help them do the job they are paid to do.
No snake oil in my posts. However, that may be because I know something about the topic at hand. 'Test for the Celta program', on the other hand, is a phrase which reveals a serious lack of knowledge about what Celta really is. (Sort of like confusing corporate experience with selling sugar...) |
You are making assumptions about SE Asia that are just not true. Most countries only expect a university degree because the foreign teacher is not teaching grammar. They are just teaching speaking and pronunciation. They are simply giving the students experience with using what they've learned from their local teacher on the foreign teacher. Slang and trailer park grammar are perfectly welcome here. The students want to know how regular people talk not English, literature or linguistic grads..
This is the entry level job. If you want to do more or make more money then you get some experience here and get certification in whatever you wish to do.
It doesn't make sense to spend that money (or advise or recommend training) when you haven't a clue about the job. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| VietCanada wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
"Stop selling Celta to newbies"??? Who is embarrassing themselves again?
As for making a few bucks off people's hardships, I would say that going into any classroom with no training or qualifications is what is reprehensible - even when getting started. Unleashing ignorance on paying students. That should make one ashamed of oneself. Not advising posters that a Cambridge pre-service course will help them do the job they are paid to do.
No snake oil in my posts. However, that may be because I know something about the topic at hand. 'Test for the Celta program', on the other hand, is a phrase which reveals a serious lack of knowledge about what Celta really is. (Sort of like confusing corporate experience with selling sugar...) |
You are making assumptions about SE Asia that are just not true. Most countries only expect a university degree because the foreign teacher is not teaching grammar. They are just teaching speaking and pronunciation. They are simply giving the students experience with using what they've learned from their local teacher on the foreign teacher. Slang and trailer park grammar are perfectly welcome here. The students want to know how regular people talk not English, literature or linguistic grads..
This is the entry level job. If you want to do more or make more money then you get some experience here and get certification in whatever you wish to do.
It doesn't make sense to spend that money (or advise or recommend training) when you haven't a clue about the job. |
See, now you are projecting your narrow experience. Are speaking and pronunciation the only functions of all teachers in SE Asia? Surely some of them are required to expand a bit further than that?
Aside from the obvious "I need a job" aspect, isn't it somewhat valuable to have a minimal foundation in TESL/TEFL? You make it sound like you guys just stand there like puppets and charge for being a living dummy addition to the local ventriloquist. Surely, strategies in speaking and pronunciation could be valuable, are they not??
Learning "real" spoken English is important, correct. Should a TEFL instructor understand the concept of why we native speakers use reduced forms? When to use reduced forms? Why reduced forms are acceptable in most situations, but not always? Shouldn't a TEFL instructor understand why and when to use those in a class, so that the local helper doesn't correct them? What if you don't have a local in your class?
And no, I do not have a CELTA. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Stop selling CELTAs to newbies. That is reprehensible. You don't need that to get started in this business. |
Oh, there are great numbers of us here who recommend CELTA for newbies. In many places, they DO in fact need it to get started (not only Europe, but Latin America and Anglophone countries, for starters). If the job market demands it, then it's needed. |
I agree. SE Asia, North Africa and the middle EAST don't seem to however.
I've worked in SE Asia for most of fifteen years and CELTA just isn't a factor here. It's overkill for a newbie and very, very expensive compared to what's actually needed in SE Asia.
It's wholly insufficient for countries that expect a teaching licence and some actual experience teaching in one's home country.
To just pop up and yell CELTA every time someone asks what quals they need to teach in a foreign country is decidedly lazy at best, dishonest at worst.
Posters need to research the country they want to work in. Find a board dedicated to working in that country. Not just a sub-board here. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
| VietCanada wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
"Stop selling Celta to newbies"??? Who is embarrassing themselves again?
As for making a few bucks off people's hardships, I would say that going into any classroom with no training or qualifications is what is reprehensible - even when getting started. Unleashing ignorance on paying students. That should make one ashamed of oneself. Not advising posters that a Cambridge pre-service course will help them do the job they are paid to do.
No snake oil in my posts. However, that may be because I know something about the topic at hand. 'Test for the Celta program', on the other hand, is a phrase which reveals a serious lack of knowledge about what Celta really is. (Sort of like confusing corporate experience with selling sugar...) |
You are making assumptions about SE Asia that are just not true. Most countries only expect a university degree because the foreign teacher is not teaching grammar. They are just teaching speaking and pronunciation. They are simply giving the students experience with using what they've learned from their local teacher on the foreign teacher. Slang and trailer park grammar are perfectly welcome here. The students want to know how regular people talk not English, literature or linguistic grads..
This is the entry level job. If you want to do more or make more money then you get some experience here and get certification in whatever you wish to do.
It doesn't make sense to spend that money (or advise or recommend training) when you haven't a clue about the job. |
See, now you are projecting your narrow experience. Are speaking and pronunciation the only functions of all teachers in SE Asia? Surely some of them are required to expand a bit further than that?
Aside from the obvious "I need a job" aspect, isn't it somewhat valuable to have a minimal foundation in TESL/TEFL? You make it sound like you guys just stand there like puppets and charge for being a living dummy addition to the local ventriloquist. Surely, strategies in speaking and pronunciation could be valuable, are they not??
Learning "real" spoken English is important, correct. Should a TEFL instructor understand the concept of why we native speakers use reduced forms? When to use reduced forms? Why reduced forms are acceptable in most situations, but not always? Shouldn't a TEFL instructor understand why and when to use those in a class, so that the local helper doesn't correct them? What if you don't have a local in your class?
And no, I do not have a CELTA. |
That seriously applies to the four grade 1 classes I taught this morning.
As for the adult class I teach tomorrow evening, it'll be just following a book. No grammar. Just giving them examples of what might be said during a particular discussion and them practising it. The local teacher teaches grammar. I pop in once a week or so for a single class so they can practice speaking English to a real live foreigner. As per the school owner's instructions.
If you've ever done that before you'd know that the kind of mistakes and errors made are pretty obvious to anyone with an education and many without.
Teaching active/passive to a grade 8 class that would rather be anywhere else was simply a matter of following the pattern and helping those interested few to get it. Lots of examples and practice. I used the simple present and left off adverbials even if it made sense to have them tacked onto the sentence. It worked just fine. They focussed on the pattern and picked it up quite quickly. The local teacher was happy except for the students who just don't want to study English. My method was an adaptation of a Canadian Math professor's work on breaking down a task into it's parts or steps and working on each one in order until it's mastered before moving on to the next one.
And CELTA helps me how, specifically, with these three examples?
EDIT:I don't teach reduced forms unless explicitly asked or instructed to do so. I think students should learn how to say and use the actual words first before they face reduced forms. I think "I want to go fishing." sounds more intelligent and educated than " I wanna go fishin'." |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Remember, I don't have a CELTA, so I'm not here to hock it. I do think that a basic teacher training course is valuable for markets which don't require it. I'm not referring to hiring requirements, but classroom performance. Many newbies in SE Asia are young and inexperienced, so what's wrong with a head start?
If you work in the kind of job where you don't have to actual teach, sure, why bother? Posters need to understand the difference between requirements and recommendations. There is nothing wrong with recommending a CELTA to newbies (as long as they aren't told it is legally required in certain places). I'm not really familiar with teaching in a classroom where I don't need to know basic teaching principles, and I don't pretend to understand what it is like to have a local teacher with me. I just don't feel it is right to tell young newbies to just jump in a classroom without any basic training, if they have an alternative to help them.
We've got two extremes going here - you are acting like everyone says you MUST have a CELTA (or equivalent basic course). Likewise, it sounds like you are implying that CELTA (or equivalent basic course) is completely useless and nobody needs it to teach in SE Asia. Not entirely true, is it? Are ALL teachers in SE Asia simply an anglophone voice box?
How about telling newbies that certificate is not legally required, but might make transition to teaching a lot easier? Remember, most anglophone college graduates can't even tell the difference between active or passive, let alone what the hell an adverbial is (I did my TESL certificate at an anglophone university). Wouldn't it help, just a little? |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
Remember, I don't have a CELTA, so I'm not here to hock it. I do think that a basic teacher training course is valuable for markets which don't require it. I'm not referring to hiring requirements, but classroom performance. Many newbies in SE Asia are young and inexperienced, so what's wrong with a head start?
If you work in the kind of job where you don't have to actual teach, sure, why bother? Posters need to understand the difference between requirements and recommendations. There is nothing wrong with recommending a CELTA to newbies (as long as they aren't told it is legally required in certain places). I'm not really familiar with teaching in a classroom where I don't need to know basic teaching principles, and I don't pretend to understand what it is like to have a local teacher with me. I just don't feel it is right to tell young newbies to just jump in a classroom without any basic training, if they have an alternative to help them.
We've got two extremes going here - you are acting like everyone says you MUST have a CELTA (or equivalent basic course). Likewise, it sounds like you are implying that CELTA (or equivalent basic course) is completely useless and nobody needs it to teach in SE Asia. Not entirely true, is it? Are ALL teachers in SE Asia simply an anglophone voice box?
How about telling newbies that certificate is not legally required, but might make transition to teaching a lot easier? Remember, most anglophone college graduates can't even tell the difference between active or passive, let alone what the hell an adverbial is (I did my TESL certificate at an anglophone university). Wouldn't it help, just a little? |
I would recommend that anyone thinking of teaching in a country in which the majority of students are children not waste thousands of dollars on a certificate for teaching adults. That would be CELTA. I would recommend that if you haven't taught in SE Asia or where ever the poster in question is planning on teaching that you refrain from posting specific advice as if you have without stating you haven't.
I'm talking about teaching in Vietnam in the post you responded to. Have you ever taught there? When? I teach there now. If not then what on Earth are you talking about? And why? I am saying, as an experienced (6+ years in Vietnam) EFL teacher that most students are children. It's thoroughly absurd to learn about teaching adults before coming to teach in Vietnam. Do you dispute this?
I am not talking about getting some qual. or having certain related experience before trying out teaching (except Korea) that's obviously obvious to an op requesting what cert. they should get before teaching in some country. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| VietCanada wrote: |
| santi84 wrote: |
Remember, I don't have a CELTA, so I'm not here to hock it. I do think that a basic teacher training course is valuable for markets which don't require it. I'm not referring to hiring requirements, but classroom performance. Many newbies in SE Asia are young and inexperienced, so what's wrong with a head start?
If you work in the kind of job where you don't have to actual teach, sure, why bother? Posters need to understand the difference between requirements and recommendations. There is nothing wrong with recommending a CELTA to newbies (as long as they aren't told it is legally required in certain places). I'm not really familiar with teaching in a classroom where I don't need to know basic teaching principles, and I don't pretend to understand what it is like to have a local teacher with me. I just don't feel it is right to tell young newbies to just jump in a classroom without any basic training, if they have an alternative to help them.
We've got two extremes going here - you are acting like everyone says you MUST have a CELTA (or equivalent basic course). Likewise, it sounds like you are implying that CELTA (or equivalent basic course) is completely useless and nobody needs it to teach in SE Asia. Not entirely true, is it? Are ALL teachers in SE Asia simply an anglophone voice box?
How about telling newbies that certificate is not legally required, but might make transition to teaching a lot easier? Remember, most anglophone college graduates can't even tell the difference between active or passive, let alone what the hell an adverbial is (I did my TESL certificate at an anglophone university). Wouldn't it help, just a little? |
I would recommend that anyone thinking of teaching in a country in which the majority of students are children not waste thousands of dollars on a certificate for teaching adults. That would be CELTA. I would recommend that if you haven't taught in SE Asia or where ever the poster in question is planning on teaching that you refrain from posting specific advice as if you have without stating you haven't.
I'm talking about teaching in Vietnam in the post you responded to. Have you ever taught there? When? I teach there now. If not then what on Earth are you talking about? And why? I am saying, as an experienced (6+ years in Vietnam) EFL teacher that most students are children. It's thoroughly absurd to learn about teaching adults before coming to teach in Vietnam. Do you dispute this?
I am not talking about getting some qual. or having certain related experience before trying out teaching (except Korea) that's obviously obvious to an op requesting what cert. they should get before teaching in some country. |
Uh, I think I made it clear that I have NOT taught in SE Asia myself, so please don't imply that I sneaking around on a subject I haven't experienced. I said quite clearly that I have not taught in SE Asia, but that I feel in general that a basic qualification can be very beneficial to newbies who are going there - and anywhere - in the world.
Now, I do have experience with Egypt (I believe you stated earlier that basic training is irrelevant for North Africa-Middle East), so I'd like to clarify quite clearly that a CELTA or equivalent is important in those regions! So, before you tell us to shut our yaps about SE Asia, take your own advice.
I think, using common sense, that IF a person is able to, a basic training certificate is a very wise option and useful for anyone who wants to teach English - anywhere. And as someone who works with children (and adults), obviously a CELTA is not the best option. Personally, I think being a teacher's aide or working in a daycare at home is the best training. I'm reading the OP and he says nothing about working with children in Vietnam, just "thinking" about SE Asia in general - so you are sort of pigeonholing this topic into your own idea.
Nope, don't teach in Vietnam. I have taught many Vietnamese students though, and I've heard some pretty laughable stories about some of their foreign language "teachers", particularly when they get to a level of English where they can speak freely without pausing. So, from their own opinion, it sure sounds like some foreign teachers in Vietnam could use a bit of extra training.
Hey, if you are a fantastic teacher then who cares. But if you are 18-19, no experience, complete newbie and don't know a verb from a noun, what's the big deal about a basic certification?
But, since you are the only person on this forum who is currently teaching in Vietnam, I suppose nobody else should give advice to a guy "thinking" about SE Asia and who didn't mention he wanted to work with kids. Next, please... |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems one poster has decided that the OP is certainly going to Vietnam and will be teaching YL classes only. How this has been deduced isn't 'obviously obvious'. Also unclear is whether or not any real teaching occurs in Vietnam : ) |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| VietCanada wrote: |
Teaching active/passive to a grade 8 class that would rather be anywhere else was simply a matter of following the pattern and helping those interested few to get it. Lots of examples and practice. I used the simple present and left off adverbials even if it made sense to have them tacked onto the sentence. It worked just fine. They focussed on the pattern and picked it up quite quickly. The local teacher was happy except for the students who just don't want to study English. My method was an adaptation of a Canadian Math professor's work on breaking down a task into it's parts or steps and working on each one in order until it's mastered before moving on to the next one.
And CELTA helps me how, specifically, with these three examples?
EDIT:I don't teach reduced forms unless explicitly asked or instructed to do so. I think students should learn how to say and use the actual words first before they face reduced forms. I think "I want to go fishing." sounds more intelligent and educated than " I wanna go fishin'." |
There is such a lack of professional knowledge in just this post, it is hard to know where to start. But here's a stab.
It is tempting to think that language learning can be broken down into parts, like a maths problem. But there is no evidence to suggest that this is so in language acquisition. Which 'part' of present simple should the learners master before moving on to the next? Pronunciation? Spelling? Concept? Question forms? Affirmatives? Negatives? How does a teacher know that they have mastered it? I'd wager that though it might seem that students 'know' present simple, they don't really. Perhaps their teacher doesn't either. A Celta would help with any of the above questions, by the way.
As for reduced forms, let's not forget 'correct' contractions like don't and doesn't. It is essential for these forms to be presented quite early on, as this is what people really say to each other. Again, A Celta would help out there. Or any other pre-service teacher training course worth its salt. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, interestingly enough, children learning mathematics concepts can make it to high school without understanding partial or full components of the five strands. You can get kids who understand fractions but don't understand basic addition (it's unreal, but I saw it just yesterday). So, if I'm only allowed to speak of what I know, I have to say that mathematics can be a bit like language learning. Heck, one doesn't need to master MOST concepts in life to move on to something more "advanced".
I'm reminded of Russians who can live, work, and study in English at an advanced level, but still forget their basic article usage. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Heck, one doesn't need to master MOST concepts in life to move on to something more "advanced".
I'm reminded of Russians who can live, work, and study in English at an advanced level, but still forget their basic article usage. |
Oh, wait. I agree with most of what you post - BUT there is considerable research to indicate that article use is not BASIC, but is in fact typically one of the very last items any non-native speaker of English masters. While there are some basic rules, the finer details of article usage are quite complex (and in many cases arguable).
Fully accurate article use isn't a basic skill, but a very high-level one, essentially. |
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