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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1631
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 12:31 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

I just go by what I see. I see a lot of broke teachers. I see a lot of broke Poles. What's changed since the 90s is that credit is now widely available. Yes, there is wealthy set of entrpreneurs, lawyers and private doctors. However, the very well-qualified engineers I taught last year made less than 6k a month. The accountants I know fare little better. Thinking of the MA qualified relatives I have, who all have decent 'positions', few earn more than 6k.

Poles are good at milking the system. Some know how to access EU funds, others know how to cheat ZUS or maternity leave payments.Many avoid tax by doing cash in hand work.

The vast majority of Poles live in the osiedle and have nothing and that's why 6 people share a room on holiday or why many go to the UK or why milk bars are always busy.

Poznan is slightly different as it seems to have a tonne of foreign medical students, annoying Erasmus types and a pretty big Polish bratpack clique. Let's face it, Poles with a few inherited flats in the early 2000s didn't have to do anything to make a mint on property.
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scot47 wrote:
Dynow displays the common Anglo-saxon prejudice against living in an apartment. Not everyone dreams of living in a Home Counties style suburban bungalow !


Pfffff.

The majority of Poland lives in one and I promise you it isn't their dream living arrangement. Someone living to your right, to your left, above you, below you, no garage, not a tree or blade of grass or lump of dirt to your name...lucky if the place has an elevator....and wanting something else is what.....sticking your nose up in the air now?

People live in blocs due to necessity, not preference. Surely the Pole that "makes it" and buys a small house with a yard is not "prejudice".
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: erm Reply with quote

dragonpiwo wrote:
I just go by what I see. I see a lot of broke teachers. I see a lot of broke Poles.


Broke through lifestyle choices, no doubt. I know some middle class Poles who have little disposable cash. They do have lovely houses and very nice cars. They chose it that way.

Quote:
However, the very well-qualified engineers I taught last year made less than 6k a month. The accountants I know fare little better. Thinking of the MA qualified relatives I have, who all have decent 'positions', few earn more than 6k.


So 12k a month between two. Not bad, not bad at all. A couple on that kind of money should be quite able to afford a decent life. One can lease a very nice car (Volkswagen CC with a beast of an engine, that kind of thing) for around 1.1/1.2k a month.

Junior salaries at one of the Big 4 accounting firms are now at 6k upwards. At smaller companies, 4.5k and upwards. Seniors are on 11k upwards with considerable benefits. If someone is only earning 6k as an accountant, they can't be a particularly good one.

Quote:
Poles are good at milking the system. Some know how to access EU funds, others know how to cheat ZUS or maternity leave payments.Many avoid tax by doing cash in hand work.


EU funds are easy to access. You simply write applications and sometimes, you're successful. Not rocket science. Many Brits also do cash in hand work ("how much in cash, mate?") - it's nothing particularly Polish.

Quote:
The vast majority of Poles live in the osiedle and have nothing and that's why 6 people share a room on holiday or why many go to the UK or why milk bars are always busy.


The vast majority of Europeans are in exactly the same situation. The UK isn't much better, what with harsh property taxes, high hidden taxation (school uniforms for instance) and constant raids on pension funds.

But 6 people to a room? I wonder where you've seen that. I've been in Croatia last week and didn't see any examples of that, nor have I seen it in other places popular with Poles.

dynow wrote:
The majority of Poland lives in one and I promise you it isn't their dream living arrangement. Someone living to your right, to your left, above you, below you, no garage, not a tree or blade of grass or lump of dirt to your name...lucky if the place has an elevator....and wanting something else is what.....sticking your nose up in the air now?


Hahahaha. Someone hasn't travelled very much in Europe Wink

Quote:
People live in blocs due to necessity, not preference.


Since when?

One guy I know lives in a large flat. (senior IT developer, wife is an area manager for a bank). He could easily afford a house, but he prefers to walk to work, his daughter prefers being able to walk to school and his wife prefers the convenience of living close to the centre of town as her 'home' office is there. They've got two underground parking spaces, and their flat is of a decent size.

Why would they trade it in for living 45 minutes out of town, with their daughter having to grow up in nowhereville and both of them having long commutes every day?

Maybe in America it's like that, but in Europe, people think differently. No-one thinks badly of anyone living in an apartment in the Nordic countries, for instance.

Shake is totally right to take any of those reported numbers with a pinch of salt.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1631
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:13 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

TEFL Poland , for the majority, is a hand-to-mouth boho existence. There's an awful lot of poverty in Polska.

Poland is also one of many countries with a rather high house price to income ratio

33% salary increase? What was inflation over that time period?
What was property inflation over that period? If a flat increased in value by 100% and then fell by 30% after 2008, it's still a high rise compared to salaries.

Basics like petrol cost a lot relative to the average GROSS salary, which is 4000 PLN right now. What's the change out of 4000 GROSS.

Unemployment has fallen but so has the number of employed people, which suggests people left.

I'm waiting for some on here to become parents. Then they'll change their tunes.
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One can lease a very nice car (Volkswagen CC with a beast of an engine, that kind of thing) for around 1.1/1.2k a month.


1.2k a month for a volkswagen.....it still amazes me what things like that cost out there relative to salary. not to mention what it costs to keep gas in it. fuel prices in the US are currently around $2.30/gallon, or 8.5 liters.

oh, and this "beast" of an engine you speak of.....? In the US, the CC comes with the same ole' "me too" 2.0T, around 210 hp. What beast-like engine is VW dropping in it out in Europe? Considering a plain Jane Honda Accord and Toyota Camry come with naturally aspirated 6 cylinders putting out 260+ hp, I'm wondering what this "beast" CC is packing......or could it be just another delph exaggeration....

....like lots of black people live in Poland Rolling Eyes
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dynow wrote:
oh, and this "beast" of an engine you speak of.....? In the US, the CC comes with the same ole' "me too" 2.0T, around 210 hp. What beast-like engine is VW dropping in it out in Europe? Considering a plain Jane Honda Accord and Toyota Camry come with naturally aspirated 6 cylinders putting out 260+ hp, I'm wondering what this "beast" CC is packing......or could it be just another delph exaggeration....

....like lots of black people live in Poland Rolling Eyes


Laughing Yet again, you're applying American standards to Europe.

That engine in Europe is not just some "me too" engine - 210HP is a lot for a normal car. Yes, in America, it might be pathetic and puny - but we're not in the land of planet destruction. I'm not happy with how much CO2 my car puts out - and I wish I'd bought the 1.4 instead of the 1.6 variant.

1.2k is nothing, by the way. As I've said before, senior (not managerial) salaries in many professions are now up to 8-9k net - 1.2k/month for a car is nothing on such a salary. Bear in mind that the 1.2k/month also includes all costs except fuel.

By the way, Honda Accords in Europe don't go higher than 203HP.
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several vehicles, some manufactured by American car companies, that are faster, higher performance models than the highest performance version of what is offered here in the USA. The Ford Focus RS being one example.

The Germans are notorious for this, offering better performing versions of their vehicles in Europe whereas state side, we get the dumbed down version.

Which, by the way, makes your "planet destruction" comment sound pretty silly. Just take a look around Germany, Holland, France, Switzerland, Scandinavia, and you'll see tons of German cars, most with engines bred for performance.

Quote:

1.2k is nothing, by the way.


really? for who? what sense does it make to provide numbers for "senior salaries"? you're talking about professionals well established in their careers....very few people in Poland make 8-9K so yeah, 1.2K is "something".

i feel dumber every time I argue with you. can I refer to the black people discussion again? Confused
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delphian-domine



Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might see a lot of German cars, but a lot of those nowadays have pretty weak engines due to the taxation applied. For instance, most cars in Poland are under 2.0L due to the heavy taxation applied to those over 2.0L. It's a trend in Europe towards smaller and smaller engines - I even saw the horror that was a Ford Mondeo with a 1 litre engine!

At the end of the day, anything with over 200HP is high and not common.

Quote:
really? for who? what sense does it make to provide numbers for "senior salaries"? you're talking about professionals well established in their careers....very few people in Poland make 8-9K so yeah, 1.2K is "something".


Senior means "next step above junior". That means people that are about 4-5 years into their careers at the most, although the rapid rise of BPO in Poland means that there are many people at such levels after a mere 2-3 years.

Poland has changed a lot, and there's no reason for anyone with a brain to go abroad now. Had a look at Wrocław property prices lately?
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1631
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:31 pm    Post subject: lol Reply with quote

"There's no reason for anyone with a brain to go abroad now."

Tell that to the Polish engineers I meet in the Gulf or my Polish friend who was working as an accountant in the UK and who has moved back to Poznan and is regretting every minute of it.

There are a tonne of reasons to get out of Lodz/Dodge whatever you wanna call it at least for some years.

My current salary can buy a house there EVERY YEAR!
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chuckMC



Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"There's no reason for anyone with a brain to go abroad now." Shocked

Man, I tell you, some of the things Delph says amazes me. We all can argue about the wages in Poland until we're blue in the face. Bottom line is, if someone is fine with working their a** off and always living frugally then life here in Poland will be okay.

On a good polish salary (which I think is at least 5k netto) people still have to be very frugal. The costs of quality products will eat up your savings very quickly. If one does decide to stay in Poland long term, they have to learn to make a lot of money and live frugally.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1631
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:31 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

I know a handful who have done ok,mainly by buying their place when it was cheap and by getting lucky with non-teaching related stuff.

Good luck to them but they are thin on the ground.
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dynow



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Man, I tell you, some of the things Delph says amazes me.



he's like a politician in the primary phases, running for office.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15329

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do any posters here have a vested interest in painting a rosy picture of life in contemporary Poland ? For example are they working in Recruitment ?
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sparks



Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 629

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Delph has a slight interest. I think, however, the two or three of us on here who actually live, work and are content in Poland, get sick of crap from people who haven't/don't live and work here.
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dragonpiwo



Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1631
Location: Berlin

PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: erm Reply with quote

I think everyone who posts here has lived and worked in Poland. I think the main difference is between Warsaw, where the work is plentiful and the rest of the country, where often it isn't due to the fact that there are loads of expats in the more beautiful cities and because Polish schools hire mostly Polish English teachers these days. You also have to remember that kids learn English in school from a very young age.

The profession (lol) is not well-regarded by Polish people. They know that booze addled Brian from Walsall got a 3rd in History and Politics from Plymouth Uni, couldn't cut it in the UK and hadn't been laid for ages, so decided to come to Poland and try his luck. They know men come to Poland because of women and or grog. 9 out of ten tefl teachers prefer it because they have a girlfriend who is way out of their league back home. They can also pretend to be a pseud or musician, arty type or 'writer' in front of people who simply don't know. How many women post on this forum? There you go. When it comes to forums the Polish one is a sausage fest because English and American women, who can't compete, go to Spain and later when they're really desperate, the Middle East, where they are fawned upon by gagging-for-it, any-hole's-a-goal locals.

If Poles thought much of native speakers, they'd pay them more. Having seen the market in quite a few countries, I'd say quite a few in Poland have had 1 year's experience repeated half a dozen times. Big fish , small local pond syndrome, hence the authority with which they speak. The bigger picture ie reality is somewhat different.

Lovely place but bloody hard work and hassle for very little money. And I'm sorry if I've offended the Guardian readers but money is important. We all know TEFL isn't where you go for getting rich but there's working for a living and then there's being ruthlessly exploited for a living. Sadly, the latter is the case for 99% of the folk who teach in the old republic.
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