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JB140767
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 135
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 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
If you get 10K then chances are you aren't getting accom or airfare.
The Chinese aren't stupid and if they can get an acceptable partly qualified native speaker for around 5500 with the standard package clauses then why change?
It's not some plot by me. I simply don't want newbes getting the idea that if they go with the standard tertiary package they are missing out on some El Dorado.
I first joined Daves in 2003 and have been watching this same argument repeated over and over.
1st job- go with the least downside. Once you are operating OK in your day job - go look for privates if you want more dosh. |
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| f you get 10K then chances are you aren't getting accom or airfare. |
i would love to see evidence to back up this claim because I think it is a falsehood. I could go all anecdotal here but very simply 95% of people i know get airfare and accom, regardless of salary. I am not sure about the full time training circuit scene, not an area that holds much interest for me. But I guess they do give airfare, maybe not accom, therefore pass it up
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| The Chinese aren't stupid and if they can get an acceptable partly qualified native speaker for around 5500 with the standard package clauses then why change? |
because they are getting a little better at playing the long game. Pay the laowai more, treat them a little better and they stay more than a year or 2, hence avoiding the turmoil and expense of high turnover. Please note: I dont say this attitude is widespread, merely that it exists. The uni I left last year is a pretty good EG 10K average for foreigners, 1 guy on 17, another I know on 8300 - those are the H/L I am aware of. Everyone gets airfare (10/12 K), everyone had an apartment and class load averages about 12X16X2. They have a forward thinking president, who grew weary of the continual turnover so he changed the conditions, and it worked. He pays extra for publications and degrees, it is working to enhance the uni's rep and keep foreigners happy. Absolutely your point still holds true very often in China, but it is not universal
What i did say was the assertion that 5000 is standard is just plain wrong. This infers that there are higher and lower offers out there and this own, 5000, is all Goldilocks. Absolute falsehood, 5000 is about as low as you can go these days. You have now upped to 5500. Still way off a standard / average salary IMO
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| 1st job- go with the least downside. Once you are operating OK in your day job - go look for privates if you want more dosh |
Sound advice but for me, 5000 is a downside |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:24 am Post subject: |
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I'm going with the group that thinks this is a poor salary. So after you work for them a year, are they going to raise your salary to ten plus as you will now have more experience than 80% of those in China? Haha
I would assume you have two years previous relevant experience in order to qualify for the z-visa? That doesn't count? Hangzhou is not only expensive, it is pretty strict on visa requirements.
What are you going to teach? Please don't tell me a subject? I think your offered salary is being pretty heavily skimmed by the headmaster-recruiter cabal.
So if it is fact that your salary is being substantially skimmed, you are being exploited rather brutally. It certainly will not stop there.
Per a recent post for those who dug through it, the downside of backing out of the contract is that if they start to apply for your visa, you will be locked out of applying for other positions in China as the visa system is now computerized nationally and only allows one application at a time. |
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Shanghai Noon
Joined: 18 Aug 2013
Posts: 589
Location: Shanghai, China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| ¥5,000 is too low for a private, for-profit institute. If you are comfortable with a low salary you might as well teach at a university. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:56 am Post subject: |
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buravirgil - I so agree!!!
(I know Welch is derived from Welsh).
But the bland dismissal of of the Chinese POV is what gets me year after year.
OP prepared to put the Chinese side through the hoops to the nth degree and then skip.
If there was a Dave's teaching practice forum, I'd certainly support it. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Shanghai Noon wrote: |
| ¥5,000 is too low for a private, for-profit institute. If you are comfortable with a low salary you might as well teach at a university. |
OP mentions a public school.
High Schools and uni/vocationals are pretty much the same conditions but I'm picking the Echo connection is because the school can't hire in its own right.
I work (when at home) for a temping agency. They are responsible for paying me and their charge-out rate is about a 20% loading on what I get.
No one calls it skimming and why it gets the foaming at the mouth treatment when encountered China, I can't understand.
No-one in the West ever heard of Drake or Kelly Services? |
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JB140767
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| Shanghai Noon wrote: |
| ¥5,000 is too low for a private, for-profit institute. If you are comfortable with a low salary you might as well teach at a university. |
OP mentions a public school.
High Schools and uni/vocationals are pretty much the same conditions but I'm picking the Echo connection is because the school can't hire in its own right.
I work (when at home) for a temping agency. They are responsible for paying me and their charge-out rate is about a 20% loading on what I get.
No one calls it skimming and why it gets the foaming at the mouth treatment when encountered China, I can't understand.
No-one in the West ever heard of Drake or Kelly Services? |
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| No-one in the West ever heard of Drake or Kelly Services? |
Never heard of them, true enough
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why it gets the foaming at the mouth treatment when encountered China, I can't understand. |
It is a difficult one to comprehend, lets see if we can clarify a little. Western countries have rules and regulations that highly motivate agencies to keep in line, not to gouge clients and behave in a relatively honest manner. Still, agencies in the west are far from paragons of virtue.
In China such rules where they exist are roundly ignored and agencies here behave much less ethically than in the west. I mean this is hard to quantify, much less to prove, and if you wish you can say it ain't so. You'd be wrong, but you can choose to believe it I guess |
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Hermosillo
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 176
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| That's very close to what they are paying in Chiang Mai, Thailand....but a) fairly low cost of living b) there are about 100 new TEFL graduates every month (produced here), and quite a few more coming here to find work. IOW, it is a complete employers market. Imagine what it would be like in the States working for 4 USD per hour. Do you have a degree? If not, doesn't that present its own set of problems? |
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JB140767
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Hermosillo wrote: |
| That's very close to what they are paying in Chiang Mai, Thailand....but a) fairly low cost of living b) there are about 100 new TEFL graduates every month (produced here), and quite a few more coming here to find work. IOW, it is a complete employers market. Imagine what it would be like in the States working for 4 USD per hour. Do you have a degree? If not, doesn't that present its own set of problems? |
I was in Thailand 6 months ago, met some teachers there, I was shocked at the paucity of their income. When one guy told me he augmented his salary part-time at 1500 Baht, I was gobsmacked that this was a daily rate, I make more an hour, and I consider my income mediocre. But then again the cost of living there is lower than China. Maybe 5000 RMB (28000 B) would do over there but most people I met were earning considerably more (40000B).
Ill say it again, 5000RMB is verrrrry scanty in China and anyone inferring it is the norm is doing a huge disservice to newbies |
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Hermosillo
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 176
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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If you exclude the Non-NES, and look solely at degreed English teachers in Chiang Mai, I would put the median barely over 30K, and under 40K in BKK, with much higher rent. CMU uses hourly teachers from their Language Institute at 300 THB per hour, and often it is just one hour...so you can really get clobbered on overhead time on those jobs. I was offered 230 THB per hour to teach SAT Math(s). The Thai teachers are making less than 15K, so that sort of puts a ceiling on how much they could possibly pay a foreigner. Lots of teachers from Korea and China come here to visit on their time off, few stay to teach. The pay is actually better in Isaan, but a lot of the younger teachers are unwilling to step out of their western shadows and go there, but insist on having a British style pub to drink 300 THB pints of Guiness with their clique. I think their smart phones have a higher net worth, than many of them have. But, back to China, 5000 RMB is less than Peace Corps wages.....and if you look at the work schedule, their requirements, expectations, etc., you should think twice.
I've spoken with several recruiters from China, and the bottom line is that they aren't connected well enough to get me a visa, even though I can walk to the Chinese Consulate of Chiang Mai in about 25 minutes (with my degree, transcripts, police clearance, housing book in Thailand, etc..). But, they would like to interview me on Skype for an hour.... |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014
Posts: 366
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| buravirgil wrote: |
| Non Sequitur wrote: |
| If you would even consider welching then I'm not the guy to offer you advice. |
The people of Wales protest your Indian giving. |
"Never trust the Welsh, they're all sneaky b*****s."
- musician John Cale (he's Welsh, by the way) |
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tefl_ling
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
buravirgil - I so agree!!!
(I know Welch is derived from Welsh).
But the bland dismissal of of the Chinese POV is what gets me year after year.
OP prepared to put the Chinese side through the hoops to the nth degree and then skip.
If there was a Dave's teaching practice forum, I'd certainly support it. |
I think you misunderstood me here. I have no intention of "whelching" (as you so eloquently put it). I was asking your advice in regards to signing early... that's all. I am not putting anyone through a ringer, there are terms in the contract that where left out and I asked if those could be amended. There were also things that where unclear and I asked for clarification because I - like any rational person - will not sign anything I do not completely understand or am not comfortable with.
FYI: the new contract has not been written up yet as we are still in the question-answer faze of things.
But thanks everyone for your input. Much appreciated. |
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JB140767
Joined: 09 Aug 2015
Posts: 135
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Hermosillo wrote: |
If you exclude the Non-NES, and look solely at degreed English teachers in Chiang Mai, I would put the median barely over 30K, and under 40K in BKK, with much higher rent. CMU uses hourly teachers from their Language Institute at 300 THB per hour, and often it is just one hour...so you can really get clobbered on overhead time on those jobs. I was offered 230 THB per hour to teach SAT Math(s). The Thai teachers are making less than 15K, so that sort of puts a ceiling on how much they could possibly pay a foreigner. Lots of teachers from Korea and China come here to visit on their time off, few stay to teach. The pay is actually better in Isaan, but a lot of the younger teachers are unwilling to step out of their western shadows and go there, but insist on having a British style pub to drink 300 THB pints of Guiness with their clique. I think their smart phones have a higher net worth, than many of them have. But, back to China, 5000 RMB is less than Peace Corps wages.....and if you look at the work schedule, their requirements, expectations, etc., you should think twice.
I've spoken with several recruiters from China, and the bottom line is that they aren't connected well enough to get me a visa, even though I can walk to the Chinese Consulate of Chiang Mai in about 25 minutes (with my degree, transcripts, police clearance, housing book in Thailand, etc..). But, they would like to interview me on Skype for an hour.... |
Forget recruiters if, as you say you have proper degrees and two years experience, apply yourself - dude if you have a masters I'll hook you up with a good gig. I only paid 200 for Guinness in O'Briens, bangkok... |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| tefl_ing wrote: |
| ...we are still in the question-answer faze of things. |
Don't faze me bro'!
Jim Pellow's post lassoed the thread-- however you word what commitment you'll make, once an employer begins the process of your Z visa, an electronic system of accounting will lock you out of changing horses midstream. Or that's the risk. Few national registries work as planned.
Giddy Up!
Many working here have been there-- a huge market to suss and make a selection, a recruiter chomping at a bit, and little specific information online. You'd like to use a toe to test the waters, but it's a sheer slope and an airline reservation for which you'll initially fit the bill.
You specified an attempt to arrive at a desirable time...that's not horse sense... *nicker* Because many posters have attested to arriving whenever and only after an employer gets it together. Just let the reins slack because what really matters are the details of what you'll be teaching to whom , for how many hours a week, and where you'll be living when not in a class.
That's why a few of us are frustrated by any emphasis on pay to the exclusion of other variables. Because China is huge, regional, and poorly served by one horseshoe fits all.
Now, I just need a point to which I might apply a horse of a different color.
| JB140767 wrote: |
| dude if you have a masters I'll hook you up with a good gig. |
What have you implied? Or did you infer it? Is there a fee for hooking?
At any rate, you're correct. Recruiters are largely for the unqualified.
Great quote MysteryTrain. |
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tefl_ling
Joined: 22 Aug 2015
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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@ Jim Pellow and buravirgil
Thanks for the advice... I'll keep looking  |
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Hermosillo
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 176
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| JB140767 wrote: |
Forget recruiters if, as you say you have proper degrees and two years experience, apply yourself - dude if you have a masters I'll hook you up with a good gig. I only paid 200 for Guinness in O'Briens, bangkok... |
I hold a BBA (Bachelor of Business Administration) and specialize in Math Test Prep....specifically, a watered down version of the SAT, that was a graduation requirement for high school students in Arizona. Thanks for the consideration. I'm actually a 1:15 flight from Kunming....but as I implied before, about the Consulate, no one wants to do things the easy way. BTW, I did three, 630 ml bottles of Tiger last night....my tab was 200 THB. Always ask for the "promotion." |
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