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“dog whistle” politics in the USA!
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A claim that a reporter started the idea? Link. please.

I don't believe Clinton suggested having American Muslims tracked and for American Muslims to be required to wear faith-based I.D.

You can't logically just choose only those parts of the context that suit your purpose.
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
Politics among democratically elected/represented republics is a mature and realistic admission and administration of a plurality of beliefs, interests, and cultural traditions.


Sorry, who said that? Personal quote? In any case, it will become more difficult to maintain democratic institutions as the demographics of Western countries becomes increasing non-Western. In the US, non-whites are less likely than whites to support the 1st amendment and support limits to "hate speech". In general, the Middle Eastern countries do not have democracies and free presses. Can large numbers of these people be transplanted in \to Western countries and assimilate and accept certain Western notions of freedom of expression?

Back to my previous post:
“Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."

Harry S. Truman
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wangdaning wrote:
Churchill is best remembered as a warmonger.
Quoting in full to address a section of a post is termed "forum sliding".

But, yeah, wangdaning, if one objects to any and all state violence. Yet Ghandi was somewhat divided on the topic of Germany's agenda. I dunno...Vonnegut termed WWII as "the last moral war". I tend to agree with that. But I'm unsure how Churchhill's consistently hawkish character (before the iniitating conflicts of WW2) can be qualified as that of a "war monger" given the context of a "third" Reich. Given Germany's proposals for peace were...well, uh, ridiculous.
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
wangdaning wrote:
Churchill is best remembered as a warmonger.
Quoting in full to address a section of a post is termed "forum sliding".

But, yeah, wangdaning, if one objects to any and all state violence. Yet Ghandi was somewhat divided on the topic of Germany's agenda. I dunno...Vonnegut termed WWII as "the last moral war". I tend to agree with that. But I'm unsure how Churchhill's consistently hawkish character (before the iniitating conflicts of WW2) can be qualified as that of a "war monger" given the context of a "third" Reich. Given Germany's proposals for peace were...well, uh, ridiculous.


I forum slide again, and will do. Long winded approaches to a simple issue is what is called BS. Hey, Ghandi said it.
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
No one on this thread has termed another a fascist. You've openly admitted an agenda to represent a minority perspective to give balance to what you assert is a rampancy of "L"iberal ones. Your contributions are too often merely disruptive to reasonable discussion and occassionaly toxic in character.


Who gets to decide what is disruptive and toxic around here?

Some SJW-types use the adjective toxic to describe things they don't like. "Toxic masculinity" and "toxic whiteness". (Not that I am calling you a SJW.)
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat wrote:
A claim that a reporter started the idea? Link. please.


http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/260926-trump-muslim-database-was-reporters-idea

OTOH:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/20/donald-trumps-defense-of-his-muslim-database-comments-makes-no-sense/

johnslat wrote:
I don't believe Clinton suggested having American Muslims tracked and for American Muslims to be required to wear faith-based I.D.


I didn't write that. I wrote that Clinton was accused of avoiding the draft.

johnslat wrote:
You can't logically just choose only those parts of the context that suit your purpose.


I don't think I did. Perhaps my post was misread or I used a few too many pronouns and my point was unclear.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steki47 wrote:
In any case, it will become more difficult to maintain democratic institutions as the demographics of Western countries becomes increasing non-Western. In the US, non-whites are less likely than whites to support the 1st amendment and support limits to "hate speech". In general, the Middle Eastern countries do not have democracies and free presses. Can large numbers of these people be transplanted in \to Western countries and assimilate and accept certain Western notions of freedom of expression?
I'll ask for a cite on the emphasized portion of your argument. It's a racial distinction, but not irrelevant.

The US came to be a world power via immigration.

If you can preface the argument quoted above with an acknowledgment it is presently unknown what proportion of Muslims are happy to adopt less orthogonal expressions of faith to enjoy the freedoms in secular nations versus those that conceal an agenda to expand Sharia precepts, I can support this argument's conclusion. People dying is its evidence.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steki47 wrote:
Who gets to decide what is disruptive and toxic around here?
What has been "decided"? I've asserted.

And the assertion was substantive in regard to your falsely relating the results of a survey: 1 in 8 surveyed do not "support" ISIS, but strongly disapporve of violence (as applied by international coalition forces) to destroy ISIS.

Reporting and citing evidence to falsely make conclusion about human beings is toxic discourse-- as in deadening-- to reasonable discourse.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wangdaning wrote:
Long winded approaches to a simple issue is what is called BS.
And what simple issue is that? Terming Churchill a warmonger? I disagree.

But, hey, I enjoyed Sting's Murder by Numbers and XTC's President Kill as well, so I can sympathize with a sensibility, but not concur with a dismissive, cursory judgment.
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
I'll ask for a cite on the emphasized portion of your argument. It's a racial distinction, but not irrelevant.


Sure thing.
http://www.journalism.org/2015/01/28/after-charlie-hebdo-balancing-press-freedom-and-respect-for-religion/

This is specifically for the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millennials-ok-with-limiting-speech-offensive-to-minorities/

With regards to "speech offensive to minorities". Whites are (slightly) more likely to oppose limits to such speech than non-Whites.

buravirgil wrote:

If you can preface the argument quoted above with an acknowledgment it is presently unknown what proportion of Muslims are happy to adopt less orthogonal expressions of faith to enjoy the freedoms in secular nations versus those that conceal an agenda to expand Sharia precepts, I can support this argument's conclusion. People dying is its evidence.


Yes, many Muslims are capable of living peacefully in European nations. I have not seen any data on what % are enjoying living in more secular societies, just anecdotes here and there. My previous link was only about Syrian refugees. The rest of the Muslim world is a different set of data.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/

No more posting from this writer for now. Going hiking on a gorgeous day! Mountain temples await!
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steki47



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
And the assertion was substantive in regard to your falsely relating the results of a survey: 1 in 8 surveyed do not "support" ISIS, but strongly disapporve of violence (as applied by international coalition forces) to destroy ISIS.


Perhaps both of us have used inaccurate wording here.

Here, 13% of Syrian refugees polled have a positive (4%) or "positive to some extent" (9%) view of ISIS. Sorry, not opinion but view.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/syrian-refugees-positive-views-isis_564e2c72e4b08c74b734fc83
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roadwalker



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1750
Location: Ch

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an American of the U.S. persuasion, I'm thinking the general fearfulness and hand-wringing and pants-wetting that goes on in the general public and is echoed in the major media, is partially due to a legacy of relative safety. Sure, we shoot each other a lot, but we're so used to people carrying guns so that we occasionally venture outdoors anyway. (There's racism involved in this, though: a group with a name like "Young Black Men for Second Amendment Solutions" would cause pandemonium, as would "Open-Carry Muslims for Freedom".) And we have a lot of people living under the pressure of poverty, with pressures that aren't experienced to such an extent in other wealthy countries, such as medical bankruptcies. But we're used to that too, and we even blame other people in our own boat for those indignities and threats, rather than those who profit from our indignities. We blame the victim until it is ourselves, and only then, we see the system is rigged.

On the other hand, we haven't had to deal with a major war and large-scale death and destruction since the 19th Century. Two exceptions that spring to mind are Pearl Harbor, and the hijacked airplane attacks of 2001. Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, was a lot further away from the minds of the general population in 1941 and indeed, Hawaii wasn't a state at the time. Only the attacks of September 11, limited to a one-day attack with terrorism as the goal, (as opposed to territorial expansion, say) caused actual large destruction on the mainland, and to spectacular effect. Most of us saw it on television, however. There's a big difference between being there and watching from safety. I think the distance adds only to the fear, where the actual up close experience of the destruction and then reconstruction brings a closure that isn't as widely experienced.

In the more popular horror movies, it's not the carnage that terrifies, it's the uncertainty and the expectation of bad things that move the audience; the suspense. We Americans watch a lot of war happening in other places, usually involving our military, even if we don't see the gory details. But we know it could happen, if only like another 9/11, rather than a full scale invasion. With the media used as a propaganda tool to echo the fear and tamp down reasonable, rational responses, it's no wonder that a significant portion of the population lashes out against fellow human beings who don't actually pose a threat.

Also there's a lot of money to be made in war and fear. I wonder if anyone has figured out that angle. Hmm.
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wangdaning



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buravirgil wrote:
wangdaning wrote:
Long winded approaches to a simple issue is what is called BS.
And what simple issue is that? Terming Churchill a warmonger? I disagree.


Simple to me, but I agree maybe not universally easy to see. We see it time and again, a person acting like they want peace and declaring war. US media was recently caught showing footage of Russia attacking IS and claiming it was the US doing something. You can see how the mentality works.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steki47 wrote:
Perhaps both of us have used inaccurate wording here.
No, I've simply made a blunder and didn't carefully examine the full .pdf and believed 11% for the second question (figure) was your citation of one-eighth that had been correctly applied to the last question/figure of the .pdf. The misquote of "view" versus "opinion" is minor and irrelevant in my estimation.

You asserted that figure in response to my relating the observation:
    Terrorists are what refugees are fleeing from-- to respond --And bringing with them.
The survey is a year old. Here's a timeline of ISIS activity. (Wikipedia)
Fox is busy today deflecting Obama's criticism of reaction by citing a brief just that old.
Over the last year, what proportion of ISIS activity was anti-west rhetoric (expressed at times on this board of "Liberals")?
Vs. Violence amid what was reported as a regional, civil war?
Vs. The executions of westerners, women, and children and other Arabs?
Lastly, the year-old citation is prior to a far larger exodus to follow.
What percentage of refugees would likely answer the survey the same way?

I'll conjecture it approaches neglible.
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buravirgil



Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wangdaning wrote:
We see it time and again, a person acting like they want peace and declaring war. US media was recently caught showing footage of Russia attacking IS and claiming it was the US doing something. You can see how the mentality works.
An explanation with more resolution, though, as given, staved by abstraction as my own explanations.

Quakers: Speak Truth to Power
Alternative to Violence
Alternatives to Violence Project/USA
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