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Too many universities teaching useless degrees
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Knedliki



Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:


The real (unstated) purpose of the great expansion of further education was not to increase our citizens' wealth or utility but to remove three years' worth of hard-to-employ youths from the unemployment statistics. Unemployment was 15% in 1983 but dropped to 9% by 1989. In this it succeeded and youth unemployment ceased to be the monthly drama it used to be in the 1980s.

.


In the eighties it was the youth training scheme that primarily fudged the unemployment statistis and exploited the young.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:
To get back on topic -

It is not surprising that many degree courses do not add value to graduates' earning power but no degree promises a high-powered job and middle class lifestyle as slapntickle claims.

The real (unstated) purpose of the great expansion of further education was not to increase our citizens' wealth or utility but to remove three years' worth of hard-to-employ youths from the unemployment statistics.


While the goal of a government might be to use education as a form of social control, the goal of student's pursuing degrees has got to be to maxiimise their return on their investment and get a good job. If there is no good job awaiting the graduate, then what has been the point of studying hard towards a degree? The university, by taking a student's money, is in effect promising that the degree will lead to employment. If this doesn't happen, then students may go to court over the matter:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/07/business/dealbook/court-to-hear-suit-accusing-law-school-of-inflating-job-data.html?_r=0
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 972
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article you have posted from the New York Times bears little relevance to the UK situation.

The Thomas Jefferson School of Law in San Diego is a private institution which is not even ranked in the top 80 law schools in the USA. The average debt at Thomas Jefferson is $137,000 which is higher than at Stanford Law School. The Law School Transparency estimated the debt-financed cost of 3 years attendance at Thomas Jefferson is $262,645.

In 2013, the National Law Journal reported that Thomas Jefferson School of Law has the worst employment rate after graduation (31.5%) amongst all US law schools.

According to the 'Faculty Lounge', a law professor blog, only 28.8% of the Jefferson 2012 class was employed in full-time long-term positions requiring bar admission, ranking 192 out of 197 law schools in the USA.

This student lost her case on March 24th, 2016 and the judge's verdict was ' ...law students had opted for legal education at their own peril and were sophisticated enough to have known that employment as a lawyer was not guaranteed'.

In other words, caveat emptor.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:
The article you have posted from the New York Times bears little relevance to the UK situation.


It may bear little relevance now as you say but the UK is heading towards a deregulated market where profit is king and students are forced into consuming an inferior product by aggressive agents who are working on commission. Many of the students targeted are poor and have no idea of what they are getting into. You say caveat emptor, but these vulnerable students are being hoodwinked into believing that a degree from a third rate school will buy them the moon. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many drop out and are left with massive student loan debt. Britain should have learnt its lesson from the American debacle, but of course when the Yanks sneeze, the Brits catch a cold. It's pathetic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/business/for-profit-colleges-accused-of-fraud-still-receive-us-funds.html?_r=0
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 972
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slapntickle

Again you are using an article from the New York Times discussing US universities to support your argument about UK universities. They are totally different entities!

The UK currently only has 3 for-profit, private universities : Regent's University, London, BPP University and University of Law which receive no government funding but only funding from the student fees.

All other UK universities are charities and are independent bodies, receiving funding directly from one of the funding councils for teaching and research. Private universities are funded by tuition fees alone.

All universities are required to offer bursaries for poor students who are in receipt of the full government grant. Means-tested grants for UK students are up to 2,700 pounds for living costs.



Quote:
...vulnerable students are being hoodwinked into believing that a degree from a third rate school will buy them the moon...


How are they being hoodwinked? Surely any potential university student should have the sense to critically read and research the media reports emerging on a daily basis about university education and the job market. The UK market is flooded with graduates. Schools offer career advice, the UCAS application process offers advice, student loan advisors offer advice...
we are back at 'caveat emptor'.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:
slapntickle

Again you are using an article from the New York Times discussing US universities to support your argument about UK universities. They are totally different entities!

The UK currently only has 3 for-profit, private universities : Regent's University, London, BPP University and University of Law which receive no government funding but only funding from the student fees.


I'm attempting to describe trends, and the trend recently under the Cameron government has been to deregulate the sector and open it up to competition in the hope that the MARKET will raise standards and bring down prices.(Ironically standards are falling and tuition fees are rising.) You mention 3 notorious for-profit schools that have managed to set up shop here in the UK. How much longer before others infiltrate the market and start using aggressive market practices and dodgy agents to hoodwink the poor and vulnerable into buying an inferior product? These for profit schools have often been compared to betting shops: They target the poor and use promises of untold riches to get them to sign on the dotted line. It's no wonder that both the for-profit sector and betting shops are booming. What is often not realised is that this boom has been made on the backs of the poor who have been burdened with more debt and more poverty and more shattered dreams.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/the-failure-of-for-profit-colleges/405301/

https://www.ucu.org.uk/stopprivatisation
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Dedicated



Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 972
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slapntickle wrote

Quote:
...to hoodwink the poor and vulnerable into buying an inferior product...they target the poor


Why would a 'poor' UK student even consider applying to a private university where the tuition fees are much higher than at traditional universities? Regent's University, for example, charges almost 15,000 pounds in tuition fees compared to 9,000 pounds elsewhere.

Your argument is not logical.
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johncoan



Joined: 02 Jul 2010
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This still has nothing to do with EFL.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dedicated wrote:
slapntickle wrote

Quote:
...to hoodwink the poor and vulnerable into buying an inferior product...they target the poor


Why would a 'poor' UK student even consider applying to a private university where the tuition fees are much higher than at traditional universities? Regent's University, for example, charges almost 15,000 pounds in tuition fees compared to 9,000 pounds elsewhere.

Your argument is not logical.


I'm using the American experience to illustrate what might become a reality here in the UK in the future. Don't take me too literally. A poor student does not have access to funds and so is dependent on loans. If a pushy agent can convince an ignorant person into signing up for a more expensive school a la Regent's then why wouldn't the person opt for the better product that will open employment doors later after graduation? These people are desperate and are looking for a way out of poverty and a cert from a top school is a sure way to move up the social ladder and buy the semi-detached house with the picket fence in the suburbs. Betting shops tap into exactly the same anxieties about the future and offer untold riches to those that wanna put a bet down at 5000/1 that Leicester City will win the Premier League. Not much chance of that, but then again there is a chance, right?

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/09/for-profit-university-subprime-student-poor-minority
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johncoan wrote:
This still has nothing to do with EFL.


Come on, John. You can do better than that. Maybe nothing to do with EFL as you say but nevertheless an interesting diversion. Why not add your sage suggestions?
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johncoan



Joined: 02 Jul 2010
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slapntickle wrote:
johncoan wrote:
This still has nothing to do with EFL.


Come on, John. You can do better than that. Maybe nothing to do with EFL as you say but nevertheless an interesting diversion. Why not add your sage suggestions?


I'm just disappointed that a forum that devotes itself ostensibly to TEFL (and could really do a lot of good in advising/warning teachers who are considering work in an unfamiliar place or school) is completely dead in its Spain section yet has umpteen posts on a thread that is of marginal relevance at best!
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johncoan wrote:
I'm just disappointed that a forum that devotes itself ostensibly to TEFL (and could really do a lot of good in advising/warning teachers who are considering work in an unfamiliar place or school) is completely dead in its Spain section . . .


It's not just Spain that's dead, but other countries too. Maybe TEFL is on its last legs? It certainly seems that many teachers, myself included, are disillusioned with the whole TEFL thing. Maybe time to get out?
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johncoan



Joined: 02 Jul 2010
Posts: 115

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slapntickle wrote:
johncoan wrote:
I'm just disappointed that a forum that devotes itself ostensibly to TEFL (and could really do a lot of good in advising/warning teachers who are considering work in an unfamiliar place or school) is completely dead in its Spain section . . .


It's not just Spain that's dead, but other countries too. Maybe TEFL is on its last legs? It certainly seems that many teachers, myself included, are disillusioned with the whole TEFL thing. Maybe time to get out?


Not easy, tho', is it?

No, I'll plough on until death.
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slapntickle



Joined: 07 Sep 2010
Posts: 264

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johncoan wrote:
slapntickle wrote:
johncoan wrote:
I'm just disappointed that a forum that devotes itself ostensibly to TEFL (and could really do a lot of good in advising/warning teachers who are considering work in an unfamiliar place or school) is completely dead in its Spain section . . .


It's not just Spain that's dead, but other countries too. Maybe TEFL is on its last legs? It certainly seems that many teachers, myself included, are disillusioned with the whole TEFL thing. Maybe time to get out?


Not easy, tho', is it?

No, I'll plough on until death.


No, it isn't. TEFLers aren't exactly rich and our skills are limited so we find it difficult to move into other areas. There's always work out there, but it seems that it is becoming more competitive and wages are falling and expectations of what is to be done are rising. It used to be a cruise but now the bosses expect to extract every last drop of juice out of us and that takes the fun out of it all.
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