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Newly qualified PGCE holder....what are my chances?
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joe30



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:20 pm    Post subject: Newly qualified PGCE holder....what are my chances? Reply with quote

Hi,

I'll be starting a PGCE this September (not online, I'm going back to the UK to do the one that gives QTS). Would really like to work in Hong Kong some day...hopefully in the nearish future. Seems to combine a nice salary with an acceptable lifestyle (i.e. no horrendous pollution like China, no huge restriction of freedom like the Middle East), and well, it's just an exciting country.

My experience so far is just two years of ESL at language schools in Thailand. Not much I know, but that's all I've got. I'm going back home and doing this PGCE to try and upgrade my teaching ability, upgrade my salary, and upgrade my options - just generally searching a far superior quality of life.

I've looked at the two big schemes - NET and ESF. From what I understand, if I want to go the international teaching route, ESF will be better as I'll be getting the all important IB experience, whereas the NET scheme is just more ESL - albeit nicely paid ESL.

What's my chances of landing something in Hong Kong with a PGCE, two years of ESL experience, but no home country experience in a UK school? I've got no intention whatsoever of staying in the UK post-PGCE even for a year, that's completely off the table. I know I could easily get into some random language centre, but I'm looking at something above that level, as that's the whole point of me doing this qualification to begin with - and I'd like to start maneuvering myself to be competitive for the better international schools someday, so just plain ESL isn't something I'd really want to do full time.

Would I have a chance with ESF or an international school in Hong Kong? I realise the first tier (and likely second tier) internationals would be out of my reach - but is it possible I'd get a chance somewhere, or realistically speaking is it highly unlikely, and I should be focusing my search on less desirable areas to begin with (i.e. China, Middle East) and then try for Hong Kong with a few years experience under my belt?
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kpjf



Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Newly qualified PGCE holder....what are my chances? Reply with quote

joe30 wrote:
Hi,

What's my chances of landing something in Hong Kong with a PGCE, two years of ESL experience, but no home country experience in a UK school? I've got no intention whatsoever of staying in the UK post-PGCE even for a year, that's completely off the table.



How do you know this before even starting? Wink You might do the PGCE and really enjoy teaching your subject (or of course you might hate it)! Anyway, to get into good international schools you'll need home experience for sure. What is your subject? This is an important part too. If it's a STEM subject for instance, it makes such a difference to say art or PE in terms of positions available/demand. In short, if you really want to go down the international school route my advice is to stay in UK after your PGCE, otherwise I'd focus on EFL.

Quote:
Would I have a chance with ESF or an international school in Hong Kong? I realise the first tier (and likely second tier) internationals would be out of my reach - but is it possible I'd get a chance somewhere, or realistically speaking is it highly unlikely...


From what I have read, international schools generally in HK are very hard to get into, so no post-pgce home country experience = more or less ZERO chance (I don't have first-hand experience of this so feel free to correct me anybody).

Quote:
and I should be focusing my search on less desirable areas to begin with (i.e. China, Middle East) and then try for Hong Kong with a few years experience under my belt?


For teaching your subject in international schools or EFL?
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Newly qualified PGCE holder....what are my chances? Reply with quote

kpjf wrote:
Quote:
and I should be focusing my search on less desirable areas to begin with (i.e. China, Middle East) and then try for Hong Kong with a few years experience under my belt?

For teaching your subject in international schools or EFL?

And with what matching degree major? China is lax about qualifications --- the Gulf, not so. Plus, hiring preference goes to those with home teaching experience.
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joe30



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be doing PGCE primary. Undergrad major is history so that's unlikely to help me much...not seen many history jobs out there. Quite a few in primary though.

In the end I'd really want to be teaching primary in international schools...simple because outside of the NET scheme in Hong Kong it's a lot more lucrative to do international school teaching than pure ESL (that's why I'm getting the certificate to start with).

Any chances of ESF for me or will I really have to build up some experience elsewhere first?
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe30 wrote:
I'll be doing PGCE primary. Undergrad major is history so that's unlikely to help me much...not seen many history jobs out there. Quite a few in primary though.

In the end I'd really want to be teaching primary in international schools...simple because outside of the NET scheme in Hong Kong it's a lot more lucrative to do international school teaching than pure ESL (that's why I'm getting the certificate to start with).

Any chances of ESF for me or will I really have to build up some experience elsewhere first?

I don't know about Hong Kong, but generally, top (i.e., real) international schools worldwide expect to see a degree major, licensure/qualfication, and home teaching experience --- all relevant to the subject taught. (For example, a degree in Early Childhood Ed or Elementary Ed, a qualification to teach primary/elementary level, and a couple of years teaching in a UK/US/Canadian elementary school.)

By taking shortcuts, you limit yourself to mediocre schools in China with so-so pay and are very likely to kick yourself years later for not getting the proper education and experience upfront in order to compete against well-qualified job seekers for those better opportunities. (We often see posts lamenting about this very issue.) This is essentially a matter of what "you want" to do versus what "you really need" to do to meet employers' and parents' expectations.
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joe30



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:
joe30 wrote:
I'll be doing PGCE primary. Undergrad major is history so that's unlikely to help me much...not seen many history jobs out there. Quite a few in primary though.

In the end I'd really want to be teaching primary in international schools...simple because outside of the NET scheme in Hong Kong it's a lot more lucrative to do international school teaching than pure ESL (that's why I'm getting the certificate to start with).

Any chances of ESF for me or will I really have to build up some experience elsewhere first?

I don't know about Hong Kong, but generally, top (i.e., real) international schools worldwide expect to see a degree major, licensure/qualfication, and home teaching experience --- all relevant to the subject taught. (For example, a degree in Early Childhood Ed or Elementary Ed, a qualification to teach primary/elementary level, and a couple of years teaching in a UK/US/Canadian elementary school.)

By taking shortcuts, you limit yourself to mediocre schools in China with so-so pay and are very likely to kick yourself years later for not getting the proper education and experience upfront in order to compete against well-qualified job seekers for those better opportunities. (We often see posts lamenting about this very issue.) This is essentially a matter of what "you want" to do versus what "you really need" to do to meet employers' and parents' expectations.


Well my thinking was I could do a couple of years at a third tier international place to get the experience in, then move to a better school once I've got that experience. Which sounds better to me than doing that initial 2 years in the UK (honestly I feel my mental state getting crushed every day I stay in the UK, 3 years of that just is not an option). The pay in UK for teachers is lousy compared to cost of living, and the paperwork, hours required, awful people, awful weather...it's not for me at all.

The issue is - are there such third tier schools avaliable in HK, or would I be limited to China? China is still a better option for me than the UK...just wondering if there's some low ranking international school somewhere in HK that could hire an NQT with no experience.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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Location: The real world

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe30 wrote:
Well my thinking was I could do a couple of years at a third tier international place to get the experience in, then move to a better school once I've got that experience. Which sounds better to me than doing that initial 2 years in the UK (honestly I feel my mental state getting crushed every day I stay in the UK, 3 years of that just is not an option). The pay in UK for teachers is lousy compared to cost of living, and the paperwork, hours required, awful people, awful weather...it's not for me at all.

The issue is - are there such third tier schools available in HK, or would I be limited to China? China is still a better option for me than the UK...just wondering if there's some low ranking international school somewhere in HK that could hire an NQT with no experience.

Frankly, you'd be a teacher with zero UK teaching experience and an unrelated degree. Again, that's not likely to be enough for you to move up to the better schools; you'd still be missing major pieces of the puzzle. For example, if there's a desirable international primary school teaching opportunity available and the employer compares your CV to other job seekers who have a B.Ed, QTS, and a couple of years of UK teaching experience, who do you think will get the job? (And that's if the employer doesn't immediately hit 'delete' within seconds of opening your CV.) You can't expect the better international schools to bend their requirements solely to fit your minimal qualifications; they're generally bound by government regs and accreditation standards that also specify requirements for faculty qualifications.

Anyway, your reasons for not staying in the UK and getting a related degree and experience are personal rather than career focused. Also, don't think you won't have to do paperwork, extra hours for marking hours, working with oddball coworkers, etc., at whatever school you end up in overseas. If the thought of those duties is distasteful to you, then seriously consider your true reasons for going into teaching. Using it as an excuse to get out of the UK may not be the best route for you.

By the way, you might check out the thread: More UK teachers opt to take their talents abroad.
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joe30



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomad soul wrote:

Frankly, you'd be a teacher with zero UK teaching experience and an unrelated degree. Again, that's not likely to be enough for you to move up to the better schools; you'd still be missing major pieces of the puzzle. For example, if there's a desirable international primary school teaching opportunity available and the employer compares your CV to other job seekers who have a B.Ed, QTS, and a couple of years of UK teaching experience, who do you think will get the job? (And that's if the employer doesn't immediately hit 'delete' within seconds of opening your CV.) You can't expect the better international schools to bend their requirements solely to fit your minimal qualifications; they're generally bound by government regs and accreditation standards that also specify requirements for faculty qualifications.


So even 5 or 10 years on...lacking that UK experience is still going to hurt me? Honestly no idea if that's true or not, but if so it seems, well...a bit ridiculous. It's like when you graduate uni, the university your studied at matters a lot to your first employer, but a few years into your career no one cares where you studied. Was hoping it was the same for this 2 years experience thing (harder to get the first job but after that it's about your results at your job).

Quote:
Anyway, your reasons for not staying in the UK and getting a related degree and experience are personal rather than career focused.


I don't make any apologies for this. My life comes before my job, and I work to live, not live to work.

Quote:
Also, don't think you won't have to do paperwork, extra hours for marking hours, working with oddball coworkers, etc., at whatever school you end up in overseas. If the thought of those duties is distasteful to you, then seriously consider your true reasons for going into teaching. Using it as an excuse to get out of the UK may not be the best route for you.


Of course there's negatives to living abroad, and there's always annoyances with any job, but nothing on the scale of the UK. Honestly, just the rental prices of houses in comparison to a NQT teachers salary is enough to make the idea of teaching in the UK a non-starter, and that's without all the other stuff.

I'd be lying if I said the possibility of permanently leaving the UK wasn't a big factor in getting into teaching to begin with, though I don't see why that's not a valid and acceptable reason to pursue a job. It doesn't mean I'm going to do a shit job when in the classroom, the same way a lot of people do jobs not because it was their lifelong dream, but because it allows them to live a lifestyle they're happy with - and yet they still complete their tasks to an acceptable standard at work.
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kpjf



Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe30 wrote:

Which sounds better to me than doing that initial 2 years in the UK (honestly I feel my mental state getting crushed every day I stay in the UK, 3 years of that just is not an option). The pay in UK for teachers is lousy compared to cost of living, and the paperwork, hours required, awful people, awful weather...it's not for me at all.


You could just as easily work with loads of "awful people" in an IS. And, I read some of the really bottom tier ISs can be awful with high turnover.

For good ISs there is a lot of hardwork involved, just like the UK. I mean here if you're looking to get away from all that workload, but of course if you're happy with that for the extra salary fair enough.


Quote:
The issue is - are there such third tier schools avaliable in HK, or would I be limited to China? China is still a better option for me than the UK...just wondering if there's some low ranking international school somewhere in HK that could hire an NQT with no experience.


Better in what way? You'd be going from awful weather to awful pollution, ha. The question you have to ask is how do top ISs view experience in China? I'm not saying I know the answer but they might not view it favourably.

Quote:
I don't make any apologies for this. My life comes before my job, and I work to live, not live to work.



Quote:

Was hoping it was the same for this 2 years experience thing (harder to get the first job but after that it's about your results at your job).



Sure, that's fair enough but for the top ISs you could be competing with someone who's worked for several years in a UK school. There's even a guy on another thread with 18 years of experience who said he's had problems getting jobs in ISs (granted his main subject is PE). I guess schools want to know you know the curriculum of your home country inside out and all the issues, changes and so on. So, essentially who, as an employer would you choose

Candidate A: with 5 years in UK schools or
Candidate B: with 5 years in China/Vietnam (etc) in lower tier ISs

The answer is obvious, no? Some of the lower tier ISs might be viewed with suspicion whereas if someone's worked in state schools in the UK there won't be this doubt at all.

Why not apply for the HK primary NET programme?
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rtm



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
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Location: US

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe30 wrote:
So even 5 or 10 years on...lacking that UK experience is still going to hurt me? Honestly no idea if that's true or not, but if so it seems, well...a bit ridiculous. It's like when you graduate uni, the university your studied at matters a lot to your first employer, but a few years into your career no one cares where you studied.


I don't have any first-hand experience in international schools, but from what I understand, it's not quite like that. International schools are meant to replicate a UK (or wherever) school/curriculum/classroom in a foreign country, as a seamless continuation of UK nationals' education. If you've never taught in a UK school (or have only taught in one during your PGCE studies), it will be harder for you to perform that function. A couple years of experience in an 'international' school that doesn't care if you know what it's like to teach in a UK school won't likely give you that knowledge, either. I believe that's the reason 'real' international schools want teachers who have at least 2 years of experience in home-country schools.

It will also probably depend on what your subject is, and how much need there is for it.

Hopefully someone who has moved up the ranks of international schools without home-country teaching experience will stop by here to share their first-hand experiences.
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spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
just wondering if there's some low ranking international school somewhere in HK that could hire an NQT with no experience


As others have noted, the experience gained in a low ranking HK school isn't going to help you compete on a job market with teachers who have UK experience (and/or experience at better international schools).
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe30 wrote:
So even 5 or 10 years on...lacking that UK experience is still going to hurt me? Honestly no idea if that's true or not, but if so it seems, well...a bit ridiculous. It's like when you graduate uni, the university your studied at matters a lot to your first employer, but a few years into your career no one cares where you studied. Was hoping it was the same for this 2 years experience thing (harder to get the first job but after that it's about your results at your job).

It's not ridiculous. A major requirement (and expectation) of a teacher's career is continuing professional development; training doesn't cease the moment you get your teaching license/qualification. Case in point, I have an MA in Teaching and every year, I was formally observed and assessed on my teaching abilities. It was a condition of my employment regardless of where I taught. (I taught in university English programs in the Mid East.) My last stint overseas was as a teacher trainer and consultant for a US State Dept. higher ed project. And again, I was formally observed teaching my class, and I was also assessed while conducting my own observation and feedback session on one of the teacher-trainees I mentored. In addition, attending professional development was a requirement throughout my teaching career.

Astute employers look for professional development in a job applicant's CV. So if your teaching experience is at mediocre international schools where there's zero development/training and no regular, formal classroom observations, you won't impress top potential employers. Also, the degree matters. Some countries have immigration/visa regs that require foreign teachers to have a specific degree major. Therefore, it's not just an employer requirement.

And... Consider the following scenario:
    I'm a principal at a top American-curriculum/accredited private school in X foreign country. I'm hiring western educators who have a couple of years or more of direct experience in the US school system. Their teaching experience with American curriculum and US core standards mirror our American standards and curriculum. Additionally, they'll very likely have experience with learning technologies (e.g., Web 2.0 apps, HTML, learning management systems, etc.); lesson plan, test design, and rubric design; working with a diverse student population; attending in-service professional development; participating in classroom observations; working with special ed learners; attending parent-teacher conferences; and so on. Plus, per our accreditation agreement, faculty qualifications will be similar to those in the US school system.
So yes, as others have collectively pointed out, having home-country teaching experience is key. You'd be expected to continue the same level and type of teaching at the new school environment (with some minor adjustments). Top western-curriculum international schools don't want to be bothered with training someone on how to teach the curriculum --- teaching qualification or not.

Anyway, it seems you're falling into that "something for nothing" category in which you plan to do the bare minimum yet you expect a big payoff in return. Just be aware that your short-cut strategy can come back to bite you later on.
/
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rtm



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all of the above said, I'll also point out that most (possibly all) of the posters on this thread (myself included) have no direct experience in Hong Kong and are speaking about international schools in general. If you are interested specifically in the inner workings of the international / "international" school circuit in Hong Kong and how your experience and credentials might fare in that specific context, you should wait for someone with first-hand experience to chime in (though I have no reason to believe it would be any different from what has been described so far).
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Kowloon



Joined: 11 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I work in HK currently. I'm not at an international school but have a few friends who are.

It is extremely competitive. The better the school the harder it is to get in. I have a friend working at Kellet who did three years in the UK first so you could use that as a barometer. I have another who works at an ESF Primary and she only had a year in the UK first.

My advice - if you want to go to an International School do not compromise. The only experience they will ever accept will be local school (i.e. UK, US etc) or other International Schools. Do not get involved in TEFL thinking 'well after a few years I will transition' it does happen but you need to be extremely lucky. Man up and do one year post PGCE. Go up to the highlands or whatever and enjoy the fresh air. Then look at somewhere like Abu Dhabi to go and do a year or two. Then go for Hong Kong. By that stage you would have a competitive application for sure.

(By all means continue applying to HK positions as soon as you have a PGCE and throughout your work experience afterwards but don't bank on a position until you have a year or two under your belt.)

I'm not trying to be condescending, I've been in your shoes, at the moment you think of big Asian cities and all that comes with. The buzz, the nightlife, the food, the possibility to have fun ( Wink ) etc. Yes all that is brilliant but it will still be here after a year or two of work in the UK or elsewhere. Very Happy I have a friend who is now working at a Uni here on 55 HKD a month plus benefits. She endured a fair few years of breadline misery doing her PhD (and post doctorate work) in some dank English city. However now we all envy her!!
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nomad soul



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Man up and do one year post PGCE. Go up to the highlands or whatever and enjoy the fresh air. Then look at somewhere like Abu Dhabi to go and do a year or two. Then go for Hong Kong. By that stage you would have a competitive application for sure.

FYI: The UAE expects at least two years' UK, US, Canadian... teaching experience for primary school positions.
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