Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Newly qualified PGCE holder....what are my chances?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Hong Kong
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LarssonCrew



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're living in a place so much cheaper than the UK then you should be socking 50% of your salary away at least. After 10-15 years that's plenty enough to buy a house in the UK and get $1500-2000 a month in rental.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spelunker



Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:36 am    Post subject: re: the problem could be.... Reply with quote

.
Quote:
After 10-15 years that's plenty enough to buy a house in the UK and get $1500-2000 a month in rental.


I have not met a single FT from the UK who has done that, ever. Even the ones who earned well, are still renting or are overseas. Are you talking about on an international school salary? Even a house in a shitty area costs 80-100,000 pounds, so yes, it may be doable, but you may well be living in a shit area. It may well be different because you are from a rich family down south, but it's a different story up in the North, I am telling ya pal!

Let's play devils advocate again...

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/mar/14/mortgage-misfit-borrowers-lenders-criteria

You turn up back to the UK with a wad of cash. Banks won't give mortgages to over forties anymore, so there is one stumbling block. Unless you are pretty sure you can buy in the UK/deal with a property agent, you are confined to buying abroad. Then there is also the dilemma of bringing more than 10,000 in cash into the EU. So it would have to be in a bank in the UK. The time to get a mortgage in the UK, should you want to live there, is in your twenties, not after 15 years away....it will only be harder. I knew of a guy who came back in his fifties, with lots of money....but no house or pension....it can happen.......only saying. Nowt personal btw.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11511
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Honestly, if he works say 5-10 years in a tier 2 international school and applies for a tier 1 I cannot see them saying 'well you got great results in this tier 2 school, ah, but when you were 22/23 you didn't teach in a school in the UK for a year, next!'


The thing is that, increasingly, his competition for the job will have the better experience - joe's CV will not remain long on the table tops of most reputable schools.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spelunker



Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:57 pm    Post subject: re: true Reply with quote

But as I said, TEFL should only be for older unemployed or semi retired blokes from the West, and international schools should be for those highly qualified lot.

Also maturer, curvier asian women with no husbands should also only be for older teflers, older, curvier, richer milfs....thats the ticket, no skinny young demanding girls!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
joe30



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spiral78 wrote:
The point is that 2nd and 3rd tier schools don't offer pay and benefits over the long term that will support families in most cases. You may be happy as a clam, so long as you can be happy within your financial means.

Also do note that job market competition in education is growing fiercer all the time. You're making an informed choice to remain uncompetitive for better jobs. You choice, obviously, but most people would think this worth consideration.


Well, let's take Thailand as an example. A third tier school there might pay 80k baht a month to a qualified teachers. A second tier 100k, and a first tier 130k+.

Even that third tier school is paying five times the average local salary, so if it's not possible to support a family on that, it says more about your spending habits than the wage packet.

A third tier international in China is still paying 20k RMB a month. That's a ton more than the average local is making.

Don't get shacked up with a money grabber, and don't fall into the trap of believing your kids need a 'western' education (i.e. expensive school fees at the top schools), and you can do just fine at a second tier school.

I'd dispute whether these 'top' jobs are really better too. It's arguably better to make 25% less cash in a lower tier and more laid back school, than it is to be chasing the top salary in a top school that believes it owns all your free time.

At any rate - I have 'considered' it, and after such 'consideration', I've concluded I'd rather leave the UK immediately and take the CV hit. Just because my conclusion doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean I'm acting without thinking. We don't always have to pick the 'sensible', 'boring' and 'CV enhancing' option. Sometimes we can go for risk or fun. If we couldn't, it'd be a pretty boring existence.

jbfm wrote:
However, I disagree that if you choose NOT to go down that path that you will be relegated to a 2nd tier teaching career. Despite an overall downtrend in the industry lately, there are still opportunities for motivated and hard-working teachers to excel. The question you have to ask yourself is, are you determined to stick to the intl school route or are you open to the other ESL opportunities out there?


I'd certainly join the NET scheme if given the chance, which is ESL. If we're talking about working at Mr Wan's language centre for a couple of hundred bucks more than I made before getting qualified, then no I wouldn't go for that, I'd go to a third tier international school.

I'd certainly rather go the international school route than ESL, as aside from the NET scheme, international schools generally pay better than ESL employers. And it gives you more options in case you want to work in a different country in the future.

LarssonCrew wrote:
If you're living in a place so much cheaper than the UK then you should be socking 50% of your salary away at least. After 10-15 years that's plenty enough to buy a house in the UK and get $1500-2000 a month in rental.


This is my thought too. Pay for teachers in the UK is downright terrible (around $28k, taxed, with no benefits aside from a pension you won't see until you're 60). You'd struggle to even live in your own place for the first five years of your 'career'. Who wants to do that, when you can go work for an international school, get free accommodation, better pay, less tax, lower cost of living etc. I'm not going to suffer needlessly in the UK when I could suffer in the Mid East on 2x the money, or having a nice life in Vietnam, Korea or somewhere like that.

Save $1500 a month and after 15 years you've got $225k. Certainly enough to buy a house in the UK if you wished, providing it's not in London.

Essentially, the option for a NQT in the UK is $23k after tax, for a 60 hour a week workload. I value my time higher than that, so I won't be staying in the UK.

spiral78 wrote:
The thing is that, increasingly, his competition for the job will have the better experience - joe's CV will not remain long on the table tops of most reputable schools.


I don't know how you can be so confident about this. There's plenty of people out there who get lucky with an initial job, have a good break because their head of department left the post allowing them to be promoted etc.

Life isn't just a 'track' where if you step off the defined 'path' you're doomed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11511
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, you might get lucky. But that's not usually something responsible adults want to bet on.

Your post above contains another notable fallacy: that second-tier schools are more laid back, while first-tier schools require more time/energy. It's very often the opposite.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spelunker



Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject: re: what the .... Reply with quote

Quote:
This is my thought too. Pay for teachers in the UK is downright terrible (around $28k, taxed, with no benefits aside from a pension you won't see until you're 60). You'd struggle to even live in your own place for the first five years of your 'career'. Who wants to do that, when you can go work for an international school, get free accommodation, better pay, less tax, lower cost of living etc. I'm not going to suffer needlessly in the UK when I could suffer in the Mid East on 2x the money, or having a nice life in Vietnam, Korea or somewhere like that.


Joe, again, NOONE is saying you have to stay in the UK, even I have said,,,,,go east, young man. All I am saying, aside from the other posters, based on my experience, is make sure you have provisions for your return. I now have a house I can't live in and I am almost 40, I do not want to delve into my situation, but I am relying on friends to help me out....make of that what you will, but I am considering (praying!) to return to Taiwan, but it's not that simple with elderly family and an estranged brother I am trying to reconnect with. Make provisions in the UK first, if you leave at even say, 30, that is young for Asia, and the world. China/HK/Thailand is going to still be there, and you will have covered the dots and i's in the UK, and then you can stick two fingers up to it. But being hasty never solves anything, good things will come for you I am sure, but just don't be too much like a bull at a gate...either way, I am sure you will do fine.

The mid east as someone mentioned could definitely be a hardship posting, especially as dating is concerned. The only guys I knew who truly enjoyed Oman when I was there, were the gay western guys, pretty much everyone else including myself hated it, and some resorted to alcohol to deal with it, esp some of the ex saudi crowd. Good money, but its not worth your sanity for X amount of years, 2 years at best....then out. Vietnam, pollution is something to consider, and no long term visa, unless you marry a local. And Korea is well known for being xenophobic...but might pay well in the short term. Make a base (buy/rent) in Thailand that you can come back to, and then work from there, at least it will be yours to come back to, should anything go wrong in another asian country, and you could always teach online/tutor privately from it also.

Good luck joe,
sp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jmbf



Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 662

PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joe30 wrote:

I'd certainly join the NET scheme if given the chance, which is ESL. If we're talking about working at Mr Wan's language centre for a couple of hundred bucks more than I made before getting qualified, then no I wouldn't go for that, I'd go to a third tier international school.


Errr no. It's a fallacy that the only decent paying teaching positions in HK are in the EDB NET scheme or in international school positions. Of the teachers I know who are doing well outside of these positions, they earn on average HKD 50K / month on the low end and HKD 150K++ / month on the high end. These include professional tutors, corporate instructors, language centre owners, well-connected freelancers and others. I know this is true because I am in this group.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sistercream



Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 497
Location: Pearl River Delta

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retired teacher here who just checked in on a slow day ...

Once upon a time last century, I did work at what was then one of the Big 3 international schools in Hong Kong (lots of new kids in the top tier league since then!), and I still have friends who are working at assorted international and ESF schools here.

There's just one thing I'd like to mention this time, following some rather idealistic comments further upthread.

Yes, a top tier international school teacher in HK does earn good money.

BUT

that is because the school wants to own you, body and soul, for the duration of the contract. The students get long holidays. Teachers don't.

During holidays teachers will be running summer camps, remedial sessions, doing professional development (and writing reports on it), conducting interviews/ assessing applications from potential students, wrestling with the Finance Office about the purchases you want to make in the coming term/ school year (having researched those purchases on your own time too). After official school hours you will be preparing for the Speech and Music Festival, science/ maths competitions, spelling bees and whatever else floats your school board's boat, running excursions for exchange students, attending social schmoozes for PR purposes, and anything else you can think of.

If your boss is humane, and not too hassled by the board (do not under-estimate the board's influence) you should be able to get 4 - 6 weeks off in summer, and 10 days or so at Christmas and Easter (or Chinese New Year). Oh - I do know one school where staff are guaranteed a full 6 weeks off over summer - but they have compulsory PD days at least one full Saturday every month.

And that hard-earned money? Not all international schools, but certainly some, will expect you to part with more than you might normally plan on in order to project the right image ...certain standards of grooming, dress, and even where you live/ eat out can come under board scrutiny for weal or woe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LarssonCrew



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One point I'd like to make from what I had experienced is:

The average international school teacher SHOULD, in theory, be having far more local purchasing power and, if you're not an idiot, global spending power, than someone working in the UK as a NQT.

Lets say a NQT is making 22,000 in my area of the UK.

Using a tax calculator and assuming NO pension contribution, you end up with:

£1,476.85

A month. In your bank. Maybe a bit less, let's say 1400.

Now, renting a room in a shared house, will set you back 500 pounds. Other bills to pay:

Electricity, council tax, cell phone bill, gas, internet for home, Let's bundle together and say they come to about 250.

Ah, but you live far from your school, no problem take the bus, a monthly bus ticket is 98 pounds.

So that's 850 in basic bills [rent/living costs/getting to work], take that away and you have 550.

You need to eat, let's say you spend 70 a week on groceries and eating out, you're a social person so you spend 50 a week on entertainment, cinema, theatre, watching a football game, going to the pub etc.

You've got 70 pounds left over at the end of the month, for everything else,clothes, etc.

Whereas when I Was in China, we got an overly generous housing allowance of $650 a month, and most of us spent $300. So we had about $350 spare, we may have had $100 in bills for electricity, gas, internet and communal charges. So we actually came out about $200 up on housing.

Tax, we didn't deal with, what was put in our salary slip was what was paid into our banks, maybe it wasn't paid, but no one knows.

Most teachers received 25000 RMB, which today converts as 2840 a month.

Add in our $200 left over from housing and we're basically at 3000 pounds.

Now, the place we were living sold beers for 50 pence, a taxi was about 2 pounds into the center of town, and after work me and a colleague would eat at a Muslim noodle place for about 5 pounds between us.

A cola or beer from the supermarket was 30 pence, and a bus in the city would be 5 pence. Subway 5 pence too.

Sure, you want to get away from a grimy and third tier city, but most people were pocketing a solid 2000 pounds a month.

There was almost no way, unless you loved clubbing and soapy massages, to spend more than 1000 pounds a month, even if you ate out every single day.

After a year we were paid 1500 pounds airfare [most spent 1000 tops] and a months extra salary as a bonus, so most people came out at about 40000 pounds a year, plus we had complete insurance from BUPA that enabled us to received treatment anywhere in the world.

Sounds good, except the boss was an idiot who wanted to open an international school to gain connections with government officials, the students were entirely Chinese and had no hope in hell of passing any GCSEs or A levels, and the school was in the middle of nowhere.

Still, socking away 30,000 pounds in a year means you only need to do it for 3 or 4 years and you can buy a house [buy one NEAR A UNIVERSITY] and then you've got a passive income of around 1000 a month.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Spelunker



Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:00 am    Post subject: re: fair points, but Reply with quote

Other people manage to live on a teachers salary in the UK and get married and have a family and a mortgage. These are not arcane/unattainable things.A schoolmate of mine who I thought would NEVER be a teacher and was living at home well into his twenties and worked as a CHEF at a pub, became a teacher because his background was in sports science. He pulled his finger out and became a PE teacher. OK, PE is not ESL, but someone qualified to teach PE in the UK won't move abroad with a family unless the offer is very, very good.....so in most cases they stay, where healthcare and everything is convenient. As has been said, being single is different altogether, but as I have mentioned...I don't support the kind of extended expatriation joe is talking about. Each to their own, and good luck.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jmbf



Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 662

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points and nice to see some information from a poster with direct experience. Goes to show that there really is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want to earn good money, most likely there are going to be some sacrifices along the way.

Very interesting thread BTW - one of the better one's that I've read recently.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
joe30



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jmbf wrote:

Errr no. It's a fallacy that the only decent paying teaching positions in HK are in the EDB NET scheme or in international school positions. Of the teachers I know who are doing well outside of these positions, they earn on average HKD 50K / month on the low end and HKD 150K++ / month on the high end. These include professional tutors, corporate instructors, language centre owners, well-connected freelancers and others. I know this is true because I am in this group.


Well I'd need to get PR first, which would require 8 years work.

Not sure I'd be too comfortable having a 100% freelance income like yourself tbh though. I'm more happy with a guaranteed paycheck coming in. Though looking at ESF and NET salary scales, after 8 years working there I'd be earning plenty anyway?

sistercream wrote:
Yes, a top tier international school teacher in HK does earn good money.

BUT

that is because the school wants to own you, body and soul, for the duration of the contract. The students get long holidays. Teachers don't.


Well I'd certainly be OK working a lot of hours for the kind of cash ESF were offering! Just a question of whether I'd have a chance without 2 years UK experience.

LarssonCrew wrote:
One point I'd like to make from what I had experienced is:

The average international school teacher SHOULD, in theory, be having far more local purchasing power and, if you're not an idiot, global spending power, than someone working in the UK as a NQT.

Lets say a NQT is making 22,000 in my area of the UK.

Using a tax calculator and assuming NO pension contribution, you end up with:

£1,476.85

A month. In your bank. Maybe a bit less, let's say 1400.


Yep, it's a joke. And they expect 60 hours a week for that pittance? Dream on, lol.

Quote:
Still, socking away 30,000 pounds in a year means you only need to do it for 3 or 4 years and you can buy a house [buy one NEAR A UNIVERSITY] and then you've got a passive income of around 1000 a month.


This is exactly my plan (although I was initially thinking of HK, looks like China is more feasible).

Just out of interest - when you got your 25,000RMB salary+housing covered, what were your qualifications/experience like? Because I'd really like to replicate something like what you described.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LarssonCrew



Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha.

I wasn't even 'properly' qualified[Although I guess I was]

I am a qualified lawyer and taught A level Law and Economics [the students could not understand the Pakistani hired to teach it].

The school basically said that it would be really hard to find a law specific qualified graduate so having a lawyer on board was ok.

I had a CELTA, LLB, had passed the Bar, fluent in Chinese and had been drinking many times with the Principal.

Also I was white and from the UK, headmaster was Irish and most staff were UK/Ireland.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
joe30



Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers. Sounds like there might be a high paying position out there for me too if I look hard for it. Smile

Was thinking to try hit the big cities where you can probably get more private students (I've got 2 years ESL experience), but I guess the low cost of living of a smaller place would have its advantages too.

China looks like the place to be. I'll still apply to the HK places just in case, but looks like it'd be a good idea to extend the search to all of China.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Hong Kong All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China