Job Discussion Forums

[reblair79]

Hi Guys. I've sent a few posts on various country forums with a few enquiries but I haven't introduced myself properly yet.

I would like to know what other peoples first experiences were in the TEFL industry with reference to the aspects listed after my description. Also, I read that Spiral mentioned that many of the more experienced people may be potential employers, so it would be great to hear what anyone fitting that description thinks of my Open Degree that I gained with the Open Uni while working full time. How is it looked upon with you guys? Do overseas recruiters value it? Anyway, here is my description:

Age: 37
Nationality: UK/Scotland
Qualifications: BSc (Open)
Experience: 1 year TEFL assistant with local UK council. No other teaching exp. I also have 8 years customer service experience with major Bank and 6 years experience with Royal Navy.
Other: I will be taking a CELTA course in Vietnam soon (waiting on selling my house) and then I will stay to find work in that country.


Ok.. Here are the things I would love to hear your experiences of when you were starting out:

1. Arranging VISA's, police checks and other things such as insurance. What did you do and how did that all go?

2. Did you do your CELTA somewhere and then look for jobs afterwards in the same country or did you start off your career in another way?

3. What did you do for accommodation? e.g. did you contact the CELTA provider, stay in a hostel etc. and when did you arrange it? e.g. Did you just get off the plane and look for a place after an internet search back home, did you book somewhere in advance before you left home or something totally different?

4. What were the first things you did when you arrived in the new country and what were your emotions and thoughts?

5. Finally, is there anything you can think off that I have missed?

6. I have not booked the CELTA yet but I will be doing it in HCMC at either Apollo or ILA. Does anyone have experience or information which can help me chose which one to opt for?

Well thanks for reading. I really appreciate any comments and I look forward to them coming in!

Raymond

[SeldomSeen]

1. 3 month single entry visa can be organised in advance (or picked up at the airport - if arranged in advance - Google this). ILA certainly help with organising work permits and visas if you later work for them - at least they did in the past - I don't know about Apollo. Police checks normally have to be in the last 6 months (I think) - maybe 3 (rules change). Probably worth getting one done just before you come. Insurance -a must in Vietnam as they drive like lunatics. Get some 'holiday' insurance before you come, you can arrange further cover if/when you decide to stay here.

2. Can't advise. I know a few people who did the CELTA with ILA and got jobs with them afterwards. I assume the same for Apollo, but don't know.

3. ILA can make some suggestions (for you to organise yourself). Yes, you could just turn up and get something (and be prepared to move if it's crap). I might be able to advise you on a good place in HCMC that a few people from ILA have used - PM me for more details if you are interested nearer the time.

4. Too big a question! I like Vietnam. The traffic is insane though. You'll manage. I had a job organised before I arrived but, just like anything, there were so many unknowns. I think one of the essential qualities of being an ESL teacher is be able to handle things when there are so many unknowns.

5. No, I think you've covered most things. Try to have some savings in case everything goes wrong, you hate the place or need to leave quickly.

6. ILA has a good reputation for employing people from their CELTA. I know a couple of people who've worked for them and it sounds like a reasonable place to work. Apollo, I have no reports of.

Moving to Vietnam isn't hard. I'm sure you'll be fine.

[reblair79]

[quote="SeldomSeen"]
I think one of the essential qualities of being an ESL teacher is be able to handle things when there are so many unknowns."


Great point! I love the thrill of the unknown but I don't enjoy the moment at the time if that makes sense. Being ex forces I am pretty organied and like to know what I am stepping into... I am trying to let go of some aspects of this to start enjoying the moment!

Thanks for the reply, some great info there. ILA sounds pretty good and I think I will be going with them.

Ray

[mark_in_saigon]

A couple of issues that I think we do not address much here.

1 - Try to set up a computer back in your home country that you can access. Over the years, a lot of sites have blocked access from Vietnam. So if you think you are going to pay bills online, you could be in trouble. Plus, they block a few sites here that you may want to access.

2 - Be sure to have a power of attorney given to someone. A lot of things can come up and that POA can overcome their confidentiality bs they are so in love with.

3 - It has become a lot more difficult and expensive to send money from the west to VN. Western Union seems hopeless now, or has been for me the last year or two. Moneygram is developing the same way. Just throwing up barriers to transactions that would go through in the past, they cannot or will not say why. I found that Wells Fargo in the U.S. will do an international money transfer to Vietnam, either Vietcom Bank or one other (Vietin?). I use Vietcom. Once set up, you can send directly from your account to yourself large amounts, like 5 grand at a time I think, for like 7 bucks or so. Cheap, fast, no barriers. Just have to set it up with your bank. Do your transfer, go to the bank (I think it is almost immediate, or the next day at the most), get your cash in dollars or VND. Much better. ATM's used to allow larger withdrawals but they took that away several years ago.

On your question of ILA vs Apollo, there was a lot written about that some years ago. It is an interesting topic. I found that ILA was not courteous in their correspondence about this, they wanted to set the tone that you needed them more than they needed you. It is probably true, if you want a job with them, best to understand you are not able to stand independently and demand professionalism from them or anyone here. Instead, you must accept them for what they are, and get used to it. Depends on your personality and vision of yourself, what you are willing to put up with. And unless you are able to get a police escort wherever you go, sooner or later you have to get used to it all anyway. Personally, I rejected them, and found Apollo to be more reasonable in their discussion, but agree if you need to work at ILA, you should just suck it up and deal with it.

[reblair79]

Thanks Mark. You have mentioned a few things there that I wouldn't have thought of such as POA.

With regards to ILA, do you have any examples of issues you had with them? they seem quite expensive but I like the idea of their special package which sorts the 3 month work visa to get me started, 5 weeks accommodation and a weeks Vietnamese starter lessons and meeting at teh airport a week early to help me get settled before the CELTA starts.

[mark_in_saigon]

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=82697

As I recall, there were two big discussions on this. The one above was not the biggest, there was another one that compared various providers of the certification, and it was quite detailed.

Rather than rehash all that in its entirety, it is always better to find the old threads and use them again, so that new information that gets posted will be in its correct home.

I never worked at ILA, though I knew folks who did. I am reluctant to rate them on some scale, living here, it is all pot luck. You know, you can work at some place that no one ever heard of, have rats falling out of the ceiling (I have seen that happen as a matter of fact), just anything and everything you can imagine, and yet, maybe they recognize you know what you are doing, leave you alone, and you are able to do some very good and satisfying work. Or you can be at the best school in the nation (whatever that is), and despite your skills, not fit in because you find some flaws in their process you want to fix, and it offends them, and so you are a square peg in a round hole. So, you just never know how this will go. It is not predictable, and you can be the greatest teacher to ever hit some town, or run out of a job the first week following your same teaching process.

There are many reasons it is all such a mess, and at the individual level, we are pretty much powerless to do anything about it. I guess that was my main complaint about the ILA thing. It was clearly a case of "pay us your money to shut up and listen to us, we do not care about your ideas, even if some of them may be better than ours". And I can surely understand that, they are teaching their process, they need to stay on track. I think the info that made me decide to forget about them was when I heard from some insider that if a certain percentage of trainees did not break down in tears during the training, they had not been successful. This was some years ago, I cannot really speak for the way it is now, and even then, I chose not to do business with them, so it was not firsthand info.

Most of the young people coming in likely need something like the ILA CELTA. I would warn that my comments in these threads are really for people with a very different profile, which very few of us fit. That is also likely a problem with these threads in a general way. I suspect the average poster here is not at all representative of the average English teacher in Vietnam. So you are reading comments from guys who have been here upwards of a decade or more, who have reached the point where they create materials that are more appropriate for the natives than the materials that are commercially available, who may be true experts in their jobs. But the problems and questions being posed are more relevant for the newcomers, and the answers and solutions for the newcomers are quite different than the answers and solutions are for the posters.

With reference to airport pickup, that is a one time deal, worth maybe ten bucks. Housing, there are hotels EVERYWHERE, very easy to get one, then move to the next one, then find the one that you like the best for wherever you are. Visa is just about money. Visa on arrival is good for 3 months now, anyone can get it. Then pay your money again and renew. The visa is not magic, but the work permit is. My guess is that they are padding their price with adding this stuff in there. What are VN starter lessons? They should be teaching you whatever lessons you need in the CELTA. Do you mean the VN LANGUAGE? It is to laugh.

[skarper]

One thing I would echo and emphasize is the need on any Celta course to shut up and follow the program, not second guess the trainers. It is a short introductory course not some academic navel gazing exercise.

Personally I think the CELTA program is antiquated and in need of a massive overhaul/update. But it is the official way in to TEFL. Trinity Certs are better but less well known here. They still need an update though.

People who get into real trouble on CELTA course are either lazy entitled brats who don't want to learn anything or older experienced people who've been working in Japan, China, Korea or some such and want to validate that experience with a qualification. They don't want to listen and learn new ideas and will often question the basis for the TEFL methodology that is at the core of a CELTA course.

CELTAs involve a lot of hoop jumping. It can make you feel like a trained poodle but if you want your doggy treat - correction certificate - jump, wag your tail and look like you're enjoying it.

[reblair79]

Sorry to ask you to clarify something which will be obvious to you all, but how to I obtain the VISA for visting then and how long does it last? And when do I get the work permit? Does an employee arrange this once you get a job?

[mark_in_saigon]

I think that at this time, the visa on arrival is the way to go. That is what my visa guy says, you can get a 3 month multi entry visa, I think it is about 300 bucks or so. Single entry would be a bit less. He says that this one (visa on arrival) is rather easily extended, I think he said endless 6 month extensions on this are an option. The visa on arrival is a rather new deal (right?). You need to bring a picture, 50 bucks cash for the guys here, and a document that your visa agent will cook up for you. The agent charged about 300 bucks, as I recall. I had to pull the trigger on that about 10 days before I flew back. They will do the picture at the airport too, if you want to wait awhile and pay them another 5 bucks.

I was back in the states for about a year recently, and so used it on my recent return. It worked fine. Visas here are really all about money, or that is what the VN tell me. But, it does pay to use someone who is good at this stuff. Some foreigners try to figure out how to shave some money off the visa expense. But you need someone reliable on this, and it is just a cost of being in the country. Figure about $100 per month on this cost if you do not have some magical sponsor.

Now, if you get the phantom work permit and a job that manages all this, great, and more power to you. But for someone just coming over, it is best to assume you will need to manage this stuff yourself, in my opinion, anyway, which is why a reliable agent is worth the rather small extra expense. You see him drive away with your passport, you damn sure want to know you will get it back with a legal stamp on time.

In the past, maybe 8 or 10 years ago or so, there was often a lot of uncertainty as to whether or not one could get endless extensions, esp without a work permit. Nowadays, seems like if you pay the money, you will get the extensions, no problemo. However, I would also suggest that if you get an extension in the north, this may not be true. Once you are extended up there, they may be more strict, even if you then travel back to the south, trying to extend here. Not certain if this is still the case, if anyone has some current notes on this, please share.

On the issue of work permits, that is a pretty big topic you should just do a search on. My comment would be: do not make the assumption you are going to get a job with an employer who will manage this for you right away. In the past, some 80% or more of these folks were working without one, maybe that number is no longer so high, but my guess is that it is still well over half. So, if you were someone who was so well prepared and qualified to work here that you were likely to be getting a work permit right away, you would likely know a lot about it already. As you don't, it is probably best to assume you will be struggling to get one eventually. And understand you may just come and go like so many of the young people here for a rather short stint and never get a wp. Do a search on the topic, there has been reams written about this.

[ExpatLuke]

I'm not exactly sure what Mark is referring to as a Visa on arrival which costs $300. I've never heard of this visa. Are you referring to a 3 month business visa?

As far as I know the process for getting a visa is that you must apply online either through a visa agent (tons offering the service if you google it), or handle it yourself through the Vietnamese government's visa website. You will then be emailed an "invitation letter" which you print out and bring with you.

Show this invitation letter to the visa on arrival station at the airport, pay the fee, and you'll get whatever visa the invitation letter approved.

Total cost is around $50 for 3 month multiple entry plus whatever fee the visa agency would charge (usually $10-$20). This is what my family are all doing when they arrive in October.