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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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 Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:17 am Post subject: Re: re: hmmmm |
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| Spelunker wrote: |
For that, why rent a one bedroom shoebox in Kowloon? If the OP has HKID, they can easily get a 1 or 2 year business visa for mainland china. Rent a more spacious apartment there for a fraction of the price in say Luohu or Futian, and take the KCR each day, at weekends eat cheaper in Shenzhen like the older hongkies do, cheaper massages as well. That's what I would do even if it meant getting up earlier, that or live somewhere like Cheung Chau. |
Well that's up to the OP's personal preferences. Some teachers live further out in the New Territories or outlying islands to get more space for their money. The downside is of course increased commuting times and less convenient access to western shops / bars / restaurants. As the OP is interested in HK, I would advise they spend their first contract period in town to experience all that HK has to offer (the buzz, the excitement, going out, all that jazz). It's harder to do that if you are living in an isolated village house a good hour or more from the city centre. Later on once they get acclimatised to HK then if they want to move further out of town then they can.
As for living in China and commuting to HK, yes some people do that but I personally wouldn't recommend it. For starters the cross-border commute for foreigners passing through Lowu can be hellish with queues up to an hour (I would know, I crossed the border several times per week for quite a few years). Depending on the location of your place in Shenzhen and your school in HK, you could easily be looking at a daily round-trip commute of 3-4 hours. Personally I'd rather use that wasted time to either increase my income / relax with friends / pursue hobbies / explore HK / whatever.
If you want to live in HK, live in HK. If you want to live in China, live in China. |
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Spelunker
Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:16 pm Post subject: re: money matters to some... |
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| Quote: |
| If you want to live in HK, live in HK. If you want to live in China, live in China. |
You like your free time to relax in HK....and that is fine.
But I much prefer the cheaper living costs in Shenzhen, even if it means getting up and crossing a border to get to HK (which is still a part of China anyway), so to me it's just a matter of currency and economics. Perfectly possible to live in Shenzhen and work in HK, just because I was working in HK, does not mean I have to like it or live there full time. But i understand your reasons behind staying there as you work there.
Cheers
sp |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:56 am Post subject: Re: re: money matters to some... |
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| Spelunker wrote: |
But I much prefer the cheaper living costs in Shenzhen, even if it means getting up and crossing a border to get to HK (which is still a part of China anyway), so to me it's just a matter of currency and economics. Perfectly possible to live in Shenzhen and work in HK, just because I was working in HK, does not mean I have to like it or live there full time. But i understand your reasons behind staying there as you work there.
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You've had experience of living in HK already, hence you are willing to explore the option of living in Shenzhen. I wouldn't recommend this route for a complete newbie to HK. Let them get their feet on the ground first, then they can consider alternatives.
I'll say again, don't underestimate the hassle of commuting regularly over the border. Popping over occasionally, on the weekend or on off-peak hours is one thing (especially for local HK Chinese who can go through much quicker than foreigners) but doing it twice daily can be a soul-crushing experience. I used to hate doing it. But don't just take it from me, some quotes from other expats who have done it (sourced from Geoexpat):
"Commuting from HK to SZ for work is a big hassle if you aren't Chinese. You have to queue up and get passport stamps, you'll probably need a new passport every couple of month."
"commuting from lo wu to hk is a not big hassle, it's a nightmare, too many people and queues are long"
"I live in shenzen and work in Hong Kong not by choice . The daily commute is exhausting now with so many mainland tourist . Queues can and are horrendous depending on time of day and holiday."
However, your proposal does make for an interesting thought experiment so I crunched some numbers.
From a quick google search the cost of a one-bedroom apartment in Shenzhen within decent commuting range of the border crossings (there are more than 1) ranges from 4,500 - 8,000 RMB. Let's go for the bottom of the range and say you can find a good one for 4,500 RMB. That's approx 5,200 HKD. Sounds reasonable until you figure in transport costs. From Lo Wu to Kowloon Tong (a good average location in Kowloon) a round-trip train ticket will cost you 80 HK per day. That's 1,600 HKD for a month. So we are looking at a total of 6,800 HKD already (not including transportation costs in Shenzhen). Considering that you can rent a whole floor of a village house (2 bedroom, approx 700 sq ft) in the New Territories for 8,000 - 9,000 HKD / month the savings don't look that substantial, especially considering the hassles involved.
The fact of the matter is that costs of living in Shenzhen have been increasing steadily and the cost difference between Shenzhen and parts of the New Territories is not as substantial as it was. If you really wanted to be frugal while enjoying what Shenzhen has to offer then a better solution would be living in the New Territories and popping over to Shenzhen for the weekends or evenings for your meals / massages / whatever. |
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Spelunker
Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:25 pm Post subject: re: hmmmm |
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I suppose it is a case of swings and roundabouts.
As the OP is presumably female, her experience may well be different.
As a single western male, Shenzhen would be much more fun than trying to date demanding local HK women, and much cheaper beer and food as well. Again, working in HK, does not mean you have to live/spend money there....to each their own, personally I don't see HK as anything but a destination for work, it is not say Thailand for r and r, or Vietnam for cheap nights in a rowdy bia hoi. And that is fine. But I say again, to each their own. Thank you.
good luck,
sp |
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celta
Joined: 28 Aug 2011
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: re: good and bad... |
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| Spelunker wrote: |
| Quote: |
Now the bad....your half chinese appearance may go against you, parents at centres want the teachers to look white (whatever that means!), and the schools for which you are well qualified, overly so in a lot of cases, may also want a caucasian teacher. I would say try depending on how chinese you look, you will either get offers or you won't. Speaking some canto can only help, at least you will be able to haggle a bit, make yourself understood and so on....although you may not like what you hear, but generally using english is no problem. Go for it and good luck! |
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You sir, know what you are talking about! Do u know there r "native" english teachers in schools here who have strong french/italian/russian/spanish accents?!
the clowns in power wouldn't know a native accent from a north korean one. this place is so racist against asians, it's just unbelievable!
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:57 am Post subject: Re: re: good and bad... |
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| celta wrote: |
You sir, know what you are talking about! Do u know there r "native" english teachers in schools here who have strong french/italian/russian/spanish accents?!
the clowns in power wouldn't know a native accent from a north korean one. this place is so racist against asians, it's just unbelievable!
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Unfortunately this is not unique to Hong Kong. In fact, I wouldn't say Hong Kong is any worse in this regard than many other countries. |
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lugubregondola
Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| why would the OP want to consider the NET scheme when she's a qualified UK teacher? She can earn more at an international school in HK I think with a proper package that includes flight, flight allowance, free accommodation in HK etc. You just get a housing allowance on the NET scheme. I think the NET schme prefer teachers with a BA in English than other subjects not sure. I have just sent off an application for a job at an EDF international school. Don'tknow how much they pay but it had better be over $60k USD a year plus free accommodation |
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Spelunker
Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: re: not sure |
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| Quote: |
| Don'tknow how much they pay but it had better be over $60k USD a year plus free accommodation |
Not sure. The days of high salaried packages for expats are long gone in H.K. I think you will be looking at anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 a year, 60 may be possible. Good luck. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:46 am Post subject: |
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| lugubregondola wrote: |
| why would the OP want to consider the NET scheme when she's a qualified UK teacher? She can earn more at an international school in HK I think with a proper package that includes flight, flight allowance, free accommodation in HK etc. You just get a housing allowance on the NET scheme. I think the NET schme prefer teachers with a BA in English than other subjects not sure. I have just sent off an application for a job at an EDF international school. Don'tknow how much they pay but it had better be over $60k USD a year plus free accommodation |
Ok, quite a few misconceptions here. Let's talk about basic salary first. Actually the salary ranges between international schools and the EDB NET scheme are fairly comparable.
International School salaries mostly range from 30K - 80K / month. On top of this a housing (or cash allowance) is sometimes offered. This varies but is usually between 5K - 10K / month. So that bumps up the approx range to 35K - 90K. (not including end of contract bonuses - more on that later)
EDB NET scheme salaries range from 28K - 65K / month. The accommodation allowance is currently 21K / month. So the total salary range is 49K - 86K.
As you can see from above, international schools rarely offer free accommodation, instead usually offering a housing / cash allowance instead. Some offer flights (mostly one-way relocation flights to HK), others don't. The EDB NET scheme DOES offer flights, a relocation allowance and a medical scheme on top of the basic accommodation allowance.
Both international schools and the EDB NET scheme offer end of contract bonuses, usually in the range of 10-20% of the teachers basic salary. One very good benefit of international schools for teachers is heavily subsidised tuition for their own children (this can be worth a very significant amount of money).
The EDB NET scheme covers A LOT of schools so conditions in any particular school will vary. Some lower tier schools will have an outdated infrastructure, old-fashioned management and a very traditional way of doing things. Some upper tier schools will have new facilities and be very well resourced and progressive in their educational policy. You have to do your research into the particular school that you are interested in.
Likewise not all international schools were created equal. Some can be great. However, others can be difficult places to work. I'll refer you to this highly critical post about the Canadian International School (https://geoexpat.com/forum/71/thread309661.html). Apart from this, as other posters with experience in international schools have noted, the school board sometimes wants to own you body and soul, even coming down to dictating where you should live, what you should wear, who you should socialise with etc etc.
At the end of the day a lot of this information is available online. The EDB NET Scheme pay and details are here: http://www.edb.gov.hk/en/sch-admin/admin/about-sch-staff/net-scheme/remuneration-package.html
Various international schools will also detail their pay and benefits on their websites (CDNIS and AISHK being a few off the top of my head).
So to summarise, the comparison between international schools and the EDB NET scheme is not black and white. Do your research, ask questions and try to find out as much as you can before committing. |
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lugubregondola
Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| Yes that may be so but if the OP wants to move to another international school later on, it would be better having the international school on her CV than the NET scheme. Also are you sure the international housing allowance isn't more than 10k that you quoted? HK is expensive and a 2 bed flat in hk would cost a lot. Also resigning gratuity could net 10,000 pounds or so depending on the school. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| lugubregondola wrote: |
| Yes that may be so but if the OP wants to move to another international school later on, it would be better having the international school on her CV than the NET scheme. |
Again this depends. When we overgeneralise we sometimes lose important details in the process. As I said before, the EDB NET scheme is not a uniform organisation. Neither are all the international schools in HK up to the same standards. I would argue that a top tier EDB NET school (and there are some really good ones with excellent reputations) would look better on your CV than a lower performing international school. It's all relative.
| lugubregondola wrote: |
| Also are you sure the international housing allowance isn't more than 10k that you quoted? HK is expensive and a 2 bed flat in hk would cost a lot. |
I quoted 5-10K for housing / cash allowance and for the following reasons:
From the CDNIS (Canadian International School) website: http://www.cdnis.edu.hk/employment/recruitment-process.html
"a cash allowance of HK$8,000 is paid monthly..."
From the AISHK (Australian International School) website:
http://www.aishk.edu.hk/recruitment/
No mention of housing / cash allowance at all.
From the ESF Schools website:
http://www.esf.edu.hk/about-esf/working-us-/conditions-service-teachers
"A cash allowance of HK$8,050 per month"
I'd welcome more input on this and perhaps other posters in international school positions could clarify. But from what I've seen and be able to gather so far it certainly appears that the housing / cash allowance from international schools is far less generous than that of the EDB NET scheme.
| lugubregondola wrote: |
| Also resigning gratuity could net 10,000 pounds or so depending on the school. |
Yes this is certainly possible under either the EDB NET scheme or an international school position. As I said, end of contract bonuses can be up to 20% (or so) of a teacher's annual income. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| lugubregondola wrote: |
| why would the OP want to consider the NET scheme when she's a qualified UK teacher? She can earn more at an international school in HK I think with a proper package that includes flight, flight allowance, free accommodation in HK etc. You just get a housing allowance on the NET scheme. I think the NET schme prefer teachers with a BA in English than other subjects not sure. I have just sent off an application for a job at an EDF international school. Don'tknow how much they pay but it had better be over $60k USD a year plus free accommodation |
A starting UK qualified teacher earns 22,244GBP a year in the UK, and then has to pay tax out of that, meaning their actual takehome is more like 18,000GBP a year.
The NET scheme compares extremely favourably to that: http://www.csb.gov.hk/english/admin/pay/42.html
So IIRC, you start at point 15, then move up two points for a PGCE. That'll put you at step 17, which is 29,560hkd a month. Then you get around 20,000 for the special allowance, so around 48,000hkd a month in total compensation. You pay tax, but there's a 20% gratuity (so I'll just say those two things cancel each other out).
50,000hkd is 4,860GBP. That's 3x what a PGCE newly qualified teacher would take home working in the UK. Even if it will adversely affect you when applying for a non-ESL job later...3x the cash is still an awful lot of money. I'll certainly be getting my application in this year. |
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Spelunker
Joined: 03 Nov 2013
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:34 pm Post subject: re: IF.. |
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If that allowance is on top of the salary, then even at point 20, its not bad, but as you could go in higher on the scale, definitely worth it.
Can't they do a background check in HK though? I saw in the smallprint a record check is needed, and what about attestation? |
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lugubregondola
Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| lugubregondola wrote: |
| why would the OP want to consider the NET scheme when she's a qualified UK teacher? She can earn more at an international school in HK I think with a proper package that includes flight, flight allowance, free accommodation in HK etc. You just get a housing allowance on the NET scheme. I think the NET schme prefer teachers with a BA in English than other subjects not sure. I have just sent off an application for a job at an EDF international school. Don'tknow how much they pay but it had better be over $60k USD a year plus free accommodation |
50,000hkd is 4,860GBP. That's 3x what a PGCE newly qualified teacher would take home working in the UK. Even if it will adversely affect you when applying for a non-ESL job later...3x the cash is still an awful lot of money. I'll certainly be getting my application in this year. |
Yes but look at how much a room or studio will cost you to rent in HK. https://www.airbnb.com/s/Hong-Kong?guests=1&checkin=10%2F01%2F2016&checkout=10%2F31%2F2016&ss_id=88xwve7v&source=bb&s_tag=lSn9-OFD
A studio costs £1120 per month and a SINGLE room costs £1067. Cheaper prices you see are SHARED rooms which no one would want to do. So already that £4860 a month is down to £3700 a month BEFORE tax and health insurance. |
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lugubregondola
Joined: 01 Sep 2016
Posts: 92
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| Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| PLus who's going to pay for the deposit on the room or studio? That will cost another month's rent in advance. |
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