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Re: Lincoln pulling out of TTC Riyadh?
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kiwiinksa



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Nan Jing

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: non-native speakers Reply with quote

BajaLaJaula wrote:
REALLY....you don't think that hiring non-native English speakers is an issue?


IF - that were what they were doing, no, it wouldn't be an issue. But if you have some academic research that might change my understanding feel free to post the link.

I'm about to respond to Lord T to explain why it's dangerous to assume.

Very Happy
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kiwiinksa



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Nan Jing

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord T wrote:
First things first: you said nearly double the number of teachers there, with more on the way. I looked again at the timetable and the number of ESL teachers is way down on previous years. In fact the number of teachers of all subjects taught there is way down on previous years.

I noticed that many of the teachers have Arab/Muslim names, and also thought that I hadn't seen any job adverts for ESL teachers at the Applied Engineering College.

That's why I asked if the teachers on the way were non-natives. Are you hiring Saudis to teach ESL?


Firstly, I'm not hiring anyone.

You gave the number of ESL teachers as 8 - to which I replied there are nearly double that with more on the way.

You had a look and because you saw "that many of the teachers have Arab/Muslim names" you assumed they might be non-native speakers. You do understand that some teachers come from USA and the UK and have "Arab/Muslim names", don't you?

But why is that even an issue? Do you have any research you want to share that might explain why that's an issue?

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BajaLaJaula



Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure there are very capable non-native English speaking English teachers. But all the same, I wouldn't want to send my kids to a primary school to learn to speak with an Egyptian accent. Zis, Zees, zose. You can study research findings...I'd rather not take the chance of them learning incorrect grammar and strange pronunciation.
Schools who employ non native speakers are doing so to cut costs....but I guess they could find some research that helps them to deceive their patrons into thinking that they are still getting a top-notch education.
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kiwiinksa



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Nan Jing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BajaLaJaula wrote:
I am sure there are very capable non-native English speaking English teachers. But all the same, I wouldn't want to send my kids to a primary school to learn to speak with an Egyptian accent. Zis, Zees, zose. You can study research findings...I'd rather not take the chance of them learning incorrect grammar and strange pronunciation.
Schools who employ non native speakers are doing so to cut costs....but I guess they could find some research that helps them to deceive their patrons into thinking that they are still getting a top-notch education


I think that speaks for itself. You don't care what others say - you're going to cling to 'it's my opinion' and hold fast.

Perhaps you're also of the view that 'white faces' are better too - as I've often heard before.

The best teachers are 'the best teachers'. They don't come from any particular race, nation or religion. They push themselves beyond the comfort of their own belief, and sometimes, sound research might be their guide.

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ayatollah



Joined: 16 Jun 2017
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Salary Reply with quote

In Saudi Arabia, as a rule, the darker your skin the less they pay you. Sad but true.
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desertfox



Joined: 14 Jun 2015
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kiwiinksa - I am having difficulty following the line of your argument here.

Why are you so defensive about teachers who may or may not have "Arabic/Muslim" names?

One can hear the sound of axes being ground, me thinks.

Are you guarding or promoting some kind of self interest here - "16 more teachers to be recruited by TTC." Recruitment, if not tefl, is still a lucrative business in Saudi Arabia.

Any self interest should be declared upfront, so we all know where you are coming from.

Other posters on this thread have made cogent contributions.

The threat posed by non native speakers to the jobs of native speakers is so obvious that it doesn't need amplifying. The state of the Saudi job market has deteriorated no end.

Salaries at TTC were 30,000 + a month. Those days have very largely gone.
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siologen



Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: re: and in Oh-Man! Reply with quote

Quote:
In Saudi Arabia, as a rule, the darker your skin the less they pay you. Sad but true.


I would imagine it is the same as in Oh-Man, where I experienced this with the Indians who would be sycophantic (economic necessity maybe?) to their Oh-Mani masters. I also saw the contract of someone from the sub-continent whose salary was stated as being a good few hundred per month lower than mine, and this fellow was a PhD holder!!
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kiwiinksa



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Nan Jing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desertfox wrote:


Why are you so defensive about teachers who may or may not have "Arabic/Muslim" names?

One can hear the sound of axes being ground, me thinks.

Are you guarding or promoting some kind of self interest here - "16 more teachers to be recruited by TTC." Recruitment, if not tefl, is still a lucrative business in Saudi Arabia.

Any self interest should be declared upfront, so we all know where you are coming from.

Other posters on this thread have made cogent contributions.

The threat posed by non native speakers to the jobs of native speakers is so obvious that it doesn't need amplifying. The state of the Saudi job market has deteriorated no end.

Salaries at TTC were 30,000 + a month. Those days have very largely gone.


Have you declared your "self interest" up front? Have any of the others?

It's simple. The echo chamber that is daveseslcafe for sad/angry teachers wishing to gring their own axes manifests in the same teachers spreading false stories. This thread is exactly that.

There are not 8 ESL teachers at TTC. The contract is not about to be pulled from TTC. There are no Egyptian teachers teaching ESL. There are some native speakers with "Arab/Muslim names" - but that's irrelevant.

I'm sorry if you and the other teachers find your careers on a downward trajectory. Perhaps the anti-intellectualism that one (of the posters) has shown might not be compatible with 'teaching'. Perhaps worrying about what country, or race, or religion a person is rather than sharing best practice just isn't the way to go.

Beyond wishing deadbeat teachers would get out of Saudi and standing up to racists and bigots, I have only a desire to tell the truth in this little corner of the echo chamber.

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Lord T



Joined: 07 Jul 2015
Posts: 285

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kiwiinksa wrote:



Have you declared your "self interest" up front? Have any of the others?

I have only a desire to tell the truth in this little corner of the echo chamber.

Very Happy


Excellent news because my interest is also the truth. Could you therefore tell us how many teachers are teaching ESL at the Applied Engineering College, how many contact hours do they do, and what are the class sizes like?
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kiwiinksa



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Nan Jing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord T wrote:
kiwiinksa wrote:



Have you declared your "self interest" up front? Have any of the others?

I have only a desire to tell the truth in this little corner of the echo chamber.

Very Happy


Excellent news because my interest is also the truth.


Very Happy

You've declared your 'interest' - not your 'self interest'. Compare and contrast the difference between the two and come back when you're happy to declare your 'self interest'.

Razz
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Lord T



Joined: 07 Jul 2015
Posts: 285

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no self interest in what happens at the Applied Engineering College, but I'd really like you to answer my questions. You keep telling me I'm wrong, but you won't give any details.

Teachers read this forum to find out what's happening in the Tefl industry in KSA. That does not make them bad people.

Would you like to tell us what is happening at the Applied Engineering College, Riyadh (formerly known as the TTC); how are things going there, are they hiring teachers, what are student numbers like?
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kiwiinksa



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Nan Jing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord T wrote:
I have no self interest in what happens at the Applied Engineering College, but I'd really like you to answer my questions. You keep telling me I'm wrong, but you won't give any details.

Teachers read this forum to find out what's happening in the Tefl industry in KSA. That does not make them bad people.

Would you like to tell us what is happening at the Applied Engineering College, Riyadh (formerly known as the TTC); how are things going there, are they hiring teachers, what are student numbers like?


Lincoln is not pulling out of TTC. We've established that.

"there looks to be about 8 ESL guys there" - Lord T Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:20 pm

- incorrect "No - there are nearly double the number, with more on the way." - my words

I believe they are hiring because there are plans to grow the college and student numbers are expected to grow too.

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desertfox



Joined: 14 Jun 2015
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiwiinska states "Lincoln is not pulling out of TTC. We've established that.

"there looks to be about 8 ESL guys there" - Lord T Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:20 pm

- incorrect "No - there are nearly double the number, with more on the way." - my words

I believe they are hiring because there are plans to grow the college and student numbers are expected to grow too. "

Kiwiinska - you seem to be very well informed about the current situation at TTC.

I return to my main question - what is your interest there?

We've had management stooges before on these threads.

You also seem to be very angry (or is it passion??).

Has life not treated you well??
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kiwiinksa



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
Posts: 23
Location: Nan Jing

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desertfox wrote:
Kiwiinska states "Lincoln is not pulling out of TTC. We've established that.

"there looks to be about 8 ESL guys there" - Lord T Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:20 pm

- incorrect "No - there are nearly double the number, with more on the way." - my words

I believe they are hiring because there are plans to grow the college and student numbers are expected to grow too. "

Kiwiinska - you seem to be very well informed about the current situation at TTC.

I return to my main question - what is your interest there?

We've had management stooges before on these threads.

You also seem to be very angry (or is it passion??).

Has life not treated you well??


I've told you what my interest is - this place is an echo chamber for disgruntled teachers. Where I have something to add that helps people to get a more accurate picture I'll contribute.

I note your professed concern for the truth - but that doesn't appear to run as far as pulling other members of the echo chamber up on their false understandings. Why?

As for asking me "had life not treated you well??" - I'm not the one bitching and moaning about the industry. I'm not the one that has a problem with race, nationality, or religion. Again - you might direct your question at them - if you're really concerned.

Razz
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desertfox



Joined: 14 Jun 2015
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiwiinksa - Are you a brother??

Come on, admit it...
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