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IndividualofNote
Joined: 27 Jul 2017
Posts: 1
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 Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: Employer encouraging me to come on an L visa. |
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| Hey guys! Probably a dumb question but my employer has told me that as my Z visa is taking some time to process, I may come on an L visa. Provided I already have my documents prepared, it can then be transferred into a Z visa. And furthermore that "When you teach with a L visa, but the Z visa is in the process of application and meet the requirements of the country, you can't be deported". Now this sounds like total BS to me to be perfectly honest, but I am new to TEFL and wanted to check with everyone here if anyone has any experience or knowledge of this type of situation? I take it I should just tell them that I will come when the Z visa is processed? |
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The bear
Joined: 16 Aug 2015
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Employer encouraging me to come on an L visa. |
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| IndividualofNote wrote: |
| Hey guys! Probably a dumb question but my employer has told me that as my Z visa is taking some time to process, I may come on an L visa. Provided I already have my documents prepared, it can then be transferred into a Z visa. And furthermore that "When you teach with a L visa, but the Z visa is in the process of application and meet the requirements of the country, you can't be deported". Now this sounds like total BS to me to be perfectly honest, but I am new to TEFL and wanted to check with everyone here if anyone has any experience or knowledge of this type of situation? I take it I should just tell them that I will come when the Z visa is processed? |
Short version: It's complicated and if it were me I'd wait for the Z visa.
Long version: If you'd have asked this question a year ago every reply would have been 'it's a scam / don't do it'. Fact is China's visa policy has had a little... fine tuning as of late. In certain areas it is supposedly possible to enter on a tourist visa and convert that to a residency permit. I think Shanghai is one of these places. However I think they're only for "top talents" such as PhDs, high managers etc. Not ESL teachers.
Again, if it were me I'd refuse the invitation and wait for an actual z visa. It's not hard to find work in China, don't put yourself through unnecessary stress and hassle. |
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tin man
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: l |
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| I did it a few years ago and later went to Macao for the Z. I don't think it is worth the risk. Besides they gave me a very difficult time in Macao and my guess things have gotten worse. I agree not go on a L. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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If the school has your documents and is telling you that it can't process them in time, RUN. The worst that could happen is that you will be delayed by a week. Besides, this is when most public schools submit your paperwork for your letter of invitation.
Despite what anyone says, it is always risky to arrive in China on a tourist visa with the intention of working.
Now think about this: What if you go on an L visa and your employer tells you, "Oh, dear! We can't get you a Z visa. You'll have to continue working on your L visa." What would you think then.
Wait for the Z visa. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't it time for a 3rd China forum?
'Job related'
'Off topic'
and
'Do you believe the L visa thing?'
BTW. My local Embassy has an urgent Z visa service but from memory, you have to attend in person. |
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max71081
Joined: 05 Aug 2015
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
Isn't it time for a 4th China forum?
'Job related'
'Off topic'
visa thingy?'
new regulations
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happeningthang
Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Yeah - all those who already here safely ensconced in China with their long ago obtained Z visas can say what they want - but they're talking about what used to be - not what is....
Now - what's happening is that the Foreign Experts Bureau is being overhauled and are implementing new rules and procuedures that were issued in the last few months.
In the past every Foreign Experts Office had a lot of leeway in what they could do, simply because there was little oversight. Even the regional offices would have different rules or standards compared to other districts or provinces. The end result being there were wildly different rules and standards being applied when issuing Z visa documents - depending on where you were.
Now - the central office - Beijng - have decreed it all be standardised throughout the entire country with all documents to be authenticated, translated, and rules that were once let slide all being enforced.
This all means that the Z visa process has gone from taking 2-3 weeks - to 2-3 months. In addition these new rules were being applied retroactively and any application not completed sent back until they get the new documents. I can only assume that alone creates something of a backlog - so story short - expect delays.
I'm going to guess a lot of employers who weren't expecting this weren't recruiting 4 months in advance - and for the normal schools and universities (not training centres) their school year has a set starting date - usually late August or early September.
So - what do you think they would or should do? Wait 2-3 months into the school year without teachers or find a work around?
That's all it is |
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Hermosillo
Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 176
Location: Chiang Mai, Thailand
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| If they don't have the connections to sort it for you; the message is clear. Wait or run. |
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huoguojiggae2017
Joined: 13 Jul 2017
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So - what do you think they would or should do? Wait 2-3 months into the school year without teachers or find a work around? |
Doesn't that just encourage more people to come here on a tourist L visa then? You work a few months from the end of August or from September, save up money, do a Z visa run (in theory later on) and then no one has missed anything.
If the school was not good to you and you weren't what they wanted, then you just leave. I don't recommend anyone do this, and I never came to China without getting the Z visa first. However, with these new rules all of a sudden being enforced, people got to eat. People got to make money.
Survival instincts take over and the Chinese government might be looking at the opposite of what they were trying to achieve. In the south, I regularly got job offers which clearly stated, "full-time job" and "no visa support".
When you have recruiting agencies employ 50+ teachers, you are just a number and will be used up. I hope this isn't against the forum rules, but I am thinking a Plan B country might be in everyone's interest to consider.
Even if you already have a Z visa, the criminal background checks expire. So, when you go to get a new residence permit, wouldn't they require a new criminal background check? In my case it was a new authenticated diploma, TEFL certificate, and criminal background check. I started all this back in the beginning of May. No one is convinced we need "one more thing" so they delay things on their end hoping we can do a 1 week fix.
One week goes by, we find out we need more time to get one document. There should be a sticky thread here which outlines these new rules so people in their home country can get the paperwork before they enter China. It's simple.
If you are in your home country, get the following before coming (don't just say get Z visa, get the supporting documents!!):
1. college diploma notarized and authenticated through a Chinese consulate
2. get a TEFL, also make sure it is authenticated
3. get a crimimal background check with fingerprints
Start the process NOW with all, then you don't have to wait for your employer to realize you need number 2, then number 3, prolonging things.
What these recruiting agencies are doing is telling teachers to come on a tourist visa, then they tell them they can take a TEFL course and then apply for the Z visa. But when you do that, you might not have numbers 1 and 3 covered yet. Arghh!!! 
My expected date for this now is pushed back to mid October before I can see something I started in May. 5 months, because each employer/recruiter just told me one document at a time. They didn't list everything that needed to be done.
Please moderators, put up a sticky titled "DOCUMENTS NEEDED FOR Z VISA". |
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JamesD
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: "As far as I'm concerned bacon comes from a magical happy place."
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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A suggestion I throw out to people with this (eternal) question.
Send them an email:
"Sure, I can come on an L visa if necessary. But I cannot and WILL not break the law by stepping into a classroom or doing any work until the Z visa is sorted out. At the same time I need to receive base salary and housing as per contract."
See how they respond to that. |
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Foo_Fighters_Dave
Joined: 09 Dec 2016
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| To be fair, it doesn't sound like it is a lot of work: South Korea does the same thing. Personally, China should be the same regardless of which region you are from. CRC, TEFL, Diplomas and get them notarized. |
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huoguojiggae2017
Joined: 13 Jul 2017
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| Foo_Fighters_Dave wrote: |
| To be fair, it doesn't sound like it is a lot of work: South Korea does the same thing. Personally, China should be the same regardless of which region you are from. CRC, TEFL, Diplomas and get them notarized. |
It's not the amount. It's the way it is presented. This thread is an example. With Korea, and I will only mention Korea once in regard to this, they ask you for ALL the documents upfront. In fact, I had an interview in November last year and they asked me, "Why don't you have the documents ready now?"
China on the other hand will ask you for one document. If you know you will get the TEFL, then it is not a big deal you have that penciled in and scheduled. However, I was never told I needed a TEFL to teach in China until now. I was never told I needed my college diploma auhtenticated through the consulate until now. I also was not told I needed to get fingerprints.
All this could have been done last year when I was in the USA, I had a car, time off to get things done. Now I am in China with a job and I need to work, no car, no transportation for me to use to go to a local police station that recruiters and schools think is easy to get to. Recruiters and schools are saying, "Oh, just ask your family to get this one thing for you, then we are all good to go."
I get it, 1 month later, and then they say, "So sorry, I forgot we also need this one more thing". Another month goes by.
If we need to do A, B, and C, let's make this clearly understood from day 1. Somebody post a flowchart or something which shows this. That way teachers in the USA know that yes you do need ALL these things done. Recruiters and schools are not being direct with us regards to this. They just want people to come as soon as possible, then they will sort out the documents.
I am near the end hopefully of this, but I would have liked some heads up last year this was going to happen. The main issue is you have to give up your passport. When you do this, you cannot fly and it is harder to travel. I understand there is a piece of paper you can use instead at train stations, but when everyone behind you has their Alipay and Wechat ready to buy tickets, the train station employees don't want to spend time doing clearance checks on a foreigner without a passport.
In your home country you can plan all this out, work and then tell your boss when you are ready to come over to China. If Korea expects the same, great, let's do it the same way then and simply inform teachers of the new rules. |
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huoguojiggae2017
Joined: 13 Jul 2017
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| JamesD wrote: |
A suggestion I throw out to people with this (eternal) question.
Send them an email:
"Sure, I can come on an L visa if necessary. But I cannot and WILL not break the law by stepping into a classroom or doing any work until the Z visa is sorted out. At the same time I need to receive base salary and housing as per contract."
See how they respond to that. |
Yea, you really want to do that? Buy a plane ticket (roundtrip or not, same argument), arrive, and then be told "Teach or leave the apartment."?
Forget base pay, you have to finish teaching their one month cycle before they consider paying you. Even if you teach say the 7th of the month to the 21st (2 weeks), you probably won't get that money until a week into the following month. If you go off to find a "better" school, a "better" master, then they will at best transfer money to your bank account.
Oh, they won't send that money either to any bank. You must open up a new bank account at a bank that they use. The other ones you have an account with won't be accepted by their accounting department. But will they reply to you with this information after you give them the Z visa ultimatum?
If you are worthy and you are a good teacher, the common denominator is that YES they will eventually get you the Z visa, the FEC, and the residence permit. Coming to China to get things done the legal way is not really an option. Do you want to be out airfare and whatever wages the school doesn't technically owe you?
I remember with Japan and Korea, there were clear flowcharts showing the process. It started something like: CHOOSE LOCATION----Kansai/Kanto (for Japan), Seoul/Busan (for Korea), and (Beijing, Shanghai, could be for China), then CHOOSE SCHOOL (public school, eikaiwa), (EPIK, GEPIK, SMOE, hagwon), (whatever for China, don't even know if the terminology exists), SUBMIT DOCUMENTS (TEFL maybe authenticated through Chinese consulate, fingerprint criminal background check authenticated by the Chinese consulate, college diploma authenticated by the Chinese consulate), CHOOSE living accommodations (whatever goes there).
That is just a simple rough idea, but it would be in a flowchart like diagram and with colors. People could clearly see the process.
Recruiters and schools would less likely be able to convince good teachers to come without the proper visa. If you don't know what will be accepted, the only person is the school or recruiter.
Yes, the US embassy could say, "We are not responsible for your business decisions in China.", but...."You should be aware of new rules that we are aware of which includes the following documents to be authenticated by the Chinese consulate in the USA: (whatever whatever listed, you know the drill)." |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:25 am Post subject: |
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"...If you are worthy and you are a good teacher, the common denominator is that YES they will eventually get you the Z visa..."
You mean that the school will send the letter of invitation so that THE FOREIGN TEACHER can apply for the Z visa with all of the required accompanying paperwork, right? |
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huoguojiggae2017
Joined: 13 Jul 2017
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
"...If you are worthy and you are a good teacher, the common denominator is that YES they will eventually get you the Z visa..."
You mean that the school will send the letter of invitation so that THE FOREIGN TEACHER can apply for the Z visa with all of the required accompanying paperwork, right? |
I decided to come back to China in 2017. I also interviewed for "other" countries last year, but China has still shown it is a better deal.
I did not know at the time they were also interviewing a couple. They could hire one teacher, but the other spouse could not get a reference letter. The funny thing is they had TEFL certificates at the time. This I did not know about until June 2017.
Anyway, I think I was hired as a "backup" teacher in case the spouse couldn't come. In April I put pressure on the school to fix the bathroom sink which a maintenance guy fully took apart after 3 visits. The second one was right out of Shawshank Redemption. He came with a file and tried to do something like a prisoner in a cell trying to escape. The third day he completely removed the faucet and left. I took a photo of it, still have it.
The couple's room however was going to be switched. They were originally going to live above my floor, but with the water leaking, the school moved them to the floor below me. When I asked why I have to pay for the bathroom sink fix they didn't answer. After nagging, they said they no longer wanted me. Fine, they only need 2 teachers anyway. Either they find another teacher to teach with me and the couple goes elsewhere or I go. When the spouse came, we talked, got along, and I just volunteered to leave the mess.
Funny thing is, now the school is sending the third school I am at since March my physical information so I don't have to do it again.
So, yea, if the school wants you they will get you the invitation letter. In my case there were ulterior motives, and it is no longer a Z visa. It is a new FEC and new residence permit.
I regret leaving the second school. The students were great, and the teachers were very nice. However, the recruiting agency refused to let me sign directly with the school. I feel I am back where I should have been, in Henan, with a third school and I have a working bathroom sink. |
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