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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: |
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As far as I can see, the salary range in HK ranges from:
HKD 18,000 - 150,000 / month. (USD 2.3K - 19.1K / month)
Salary in China ranges from:
RMB 5,000 - 40,000 / month. To that we can add a housing allowance of, lets say, RMB 3,000 / month on average. That brings the range in China to:
RMB 8,000 - 43,000 / month. (USD 1.2K - 6.5K / month)
I'm willing to be corrected on any of the figures above but I think that's roughly correct. |
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siologen
Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: re: china salaries... |
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| And I would wager the amount of FT's earning away near that 40 figure in China is miniscule. Hong Kong and the gulf region pays far better, for a guy with a unrelated degree to English and a generic TEFL certificate. I still maintain and stand by this belief. Each to their own though. |
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GHL
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I've never seen a single job posted for HK that pays anything like 150,000hkd a month. Come on, that's more than doctors and most bankers get paid. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| GHL wrote: |
| I've never seen a single job posted for HK that pays anything like 150,000hkd a month. Come on, that's more than doctors and most bankers get paid. |
Naturally, these high paying jobs are relatively rare. You are not going to see them advertised commonly on the internet. How many genuine RMB 40K+ teaching jobs are advertised in China?
But if you think about it a bit, it makes sense. If you do your research, you will find that medium tier international schools like the ESF can pay over 100K / month including benefits. Don't you think that the top tier international schools would pay more? In addition, there are other ways to earn a very decent income. I've already disclosed that I earn fairly close to that top amount as an experienced private tutor myself, and my setup is far from perfect. There are others who do it much better than me, earning more while working less hours. |
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GHL
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| Jmbf wrote: |
| GHL wrote: |
| I've never seen a single job posted for HK that pays anything like 150,000hkd a month. Come on, that's more than doctors and most bankers get paid. |
Naturally, these high paying jobs are relatively rare. You are not going to see them advertised commonly on the internet. How many genuine RMB 40K+ teaching jobs are advertised in China?
But if you think about it a bit, it makes sense. If you do your research, you will find that medium tier international schools like the ESF can pay over 100K / month including benefits. Don't you think that the top tier international schools would pay more? In addition, there are other ways to earn a very decent income. I've already disclosed that I earn fairly close to that top amount as an experienced private tutor myself, and my setup is far from perfect. There are others who do it much better than me, earning more while working less hours. |
NET scheme payscale (i.e. the best ESL job in Hong Kong) maxes out at 51,805 + the special allowance (around 21,000 I think). That's around 72,000 after many years of experience. Plus 5,100 for the retention allowance (maximum 10%) and 7.5% per year for the gratuity. Comes to around 60,000+21,000. So 81,000. Certainly that's very very good money - but 150,000 a month it aint.
Public universities as I understand it pay less than this. Yes OK, if you go and work for ESF and become principal of a school or something you might get to 150k a month if you're SUPER lucky, but you can hardly say that's an ESL job. No teacher is on 150k a month, you'd need to be in very senior management for that.
I will concede if you make it onto the NET scheme you're better off than any ESL'er in mainland China or indeed anywhere else in the world. But the number of jobs are few, turnover is low, and competition is high. I wouldn't want to be pinning all my hopes on landing a post like that. |
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CEB
Joined: 30 Oct 2013
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:34 am Post subject: |
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I completely agree with GHL about the NET scheme and Esf is one of the better packages too so a lucky teacher working their way up the pay scale (most teachers are not at the top) are probably earning around 60 to 70k per month and that's the lucky ones who work there or on the NET scheme. 80 to 90k would be the top point at the highest paying schools.
You could always subsidize your income but taking on outside work when you have a full time job or a family is restricted to how much free time you have. Anyone not working towards an early grave might do just a few hours a week.
Under the right circumstances, you can get 100k to 150k but I would say thats not the normal earning potential for hk. For the purpose of the original post, we should be looking at what is normal. 90k is the top end of normal IMO, maybe 100k with a few hours of privates. |
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Kowloon
Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:00 am Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... |
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| GHL wrote: |
No, you don't need a home country PGCE, but if you get the PGDE your bit of paper is only good for the NET scheme in HK. A scheme for which there's a low turnover rate and stiff competition to be hired. An international school in HK would want a PGCE + experience.
Essentially the PGDE is quite a risky option. You're investing lots of money and time into something that only makes you qualified for a few select jobs.
Especially if you're in one of the aforementioned entry level jobs. As is 42,000HKD for the PGDE for that matter. It's a cost that is beyond the reach of many because of other commitments. Not everyone is single, enjoys living in a house share and eating noodles every night. Some have other responsibilities or hell, just simply aren't willing to compromise on the basic things in life such as your own apartment and 3 decent meals a day. And why should they? |
...erm. To give them themselves a better chance of getting on the scheme? If wages have, and continue to, stagnated in these entry level jobs, and the person working them can already just afford their place to live and three square meals...how are they expected to move up and out of that without further qualifications. Where will they live and what will they eat 5 or 10 years from now? Trust me, having to endure such harships (and like I stated, fewer holidays abroad and a few less mad nights out would do the trick) is easier when you're young than when you're older.
I think we're just coming from completely different life perspectives. I agree the system is imperfect (and that is being polite!). However, I'd rather work within it to try and have the best career I can in this field. For me, that meant improving my qualifications while I worked. I made some minor sacrifices, but nothing I really missed. It has paid off big time and I'm thankful for that. If I stay on the scheme for 3 contracts I will save enough money to set me up for my retirement (I won't be able to retire at that stage, but I will have put away enough to set up the serious money, have couple of properties back home etc.)
I want to stress to everyone else reading this: GHL and CEB are dramatically overstating the level of competition for getting a job on the NET scheme. Don't be discouraged, it can be done. Dozens of new teachers are added each year, and frankly there are no where near as many quality candidates as people think. |
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Kowloon
Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the debate above RE salary. I agree that 150k is unheard of. That must be tenured Uni professors in Linguistics or whatever, not sure I really class that as TEFL.
For the NET scheme, the top of the scale salary for Primary school is point 29, 33 for Secondary http://www.csb.gov.hk/english/admin/pay/42.html
So primary would be 54,230+ 10% retention after four years + 21,000 = 80,653 a month basic which is all taxable. You then get a bouns of 16% at the end of each contract (but they deduct your MPF contributions from that), and flights home for you and your wife and kids.
SNETs get 92,665 basic at the top of the scale. |
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CEB
Joined: 30 Oct 2013
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:01 am Post subject: |
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ghl said: But the number of jobs are few, turnover is low, and competition is high. I wouldn't want to be pinning all my hopes on landing a post like that.
Nothing false about that |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| CEB wrote: |
| For the purpose of the original post, we should be looking at what is normal. 90k is the top end of normal IMO, maybe 100k with a few hours of privates. |
I respectfully disagree. We should be looking at the full potential income range, not restricting it or limiting it with various conditions. What is normal for one teacher might be unthinkable for another. We are trying to encompass a field with a very wide range of people in it, from hard-core workaholics with a focus only on money and savings, to hard-core alcoholics and everything else in-between. Talk of 'normal' and 'average' should be left out at this stage. With a full salary scale available, every individual can then try and decide where they fit on it.
The discussion has been interesting so far but I still stand by my figures. Most people underestimate the full potential of this industry and continue to do so. I know several individuals earning over 100K / month, and in no way have they maximised the full potential in their situations. I know I certainly haven't in my own case. The EDB NET scheme and ESF pay well but I know the very prestigious private schools (e.g. GSIS, CIS, Harrow etc etc) pay their teachers even better. They need to in order to attract and retain the best. |
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Kowloon
Joined: 11 Jan 2016
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| CEB wrote: |
ghl said: But the number of jobs are few, turnover is low, and competition is high. I wouldn't want to be pinning all my hopes on landing a post like that.
Nothing false about that |
I didn't say false. I said "dramatically overstating ". |
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LarssonCrew
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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As someone who did the PGCE international, I would like to say that, from the jobs I have seen advertised, I'm not thinking that the wages for good jobs are about on par [not including the NET jobs, but we'll get on to that later.]
Since NET jobs seem kind of rare, and one guy said the minimum for HK he'd accept is 25,000 [about 21,000 RMB], let's use that.
As a PGCE holder without any experience I walked into a Bilingual school in Beijing, and make around 38,000 a month [that's including everything, base salary is about 60% of that, the other stuff adds in like international medical insurance, housing, 15% bonus at years end, bonuses for transport, relocation allowances etc.]
My contract also includes a 15% yearly salary increase.
Now, even if the numbers look good, there are a few things to remember that I think are applicable.
Firstly, I would imagine housing is about equal in quality, however HK would be more expensive. I spent my housing allowance limit to find a super nice 2 bed place. I've been offered 450 RMB an hour from residence within the community 5 times already since moving in.
I can make 400+ from my students at my school an hour if I wanted to.
But the main point:
Let's say a teacher in HK made 40000 RMB [45000 HKD] a month, except the air pollution, who would have a better quality of life with savings potential?
I can spend 7500 RMB a month on housing, plus spent 6000 RMB monthly, and still pocket around 20,000 in savings, that's SAVING 25,000 HKD a month about.
Now, could a FT in HK on 45,000 save 25000 from that? Probably not, and most certainly without a nice home to boot. |
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siologen
Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: re: LC |
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LC,
You have a PGCE...and I do not, nor do I want one, and nor should I have one. I do not like serious teaching/marking of exams & proctoring exams. I would rather leave the serious jobs to chaps like you who are well qualified to undertake them,and leave the easier jobs for myself and others who may need them, but that is just my view, nothing personal on!!!
So for a unrelated BA and a TEFL my point still stands....Hong Kong/GCC countries pay the best wages to those types of teachers, for now. Unless anyone knows any other places, I cannot comment. That is my ha'penny      |
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GHL
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: re: good for him.... |
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| Kowloon wrote: |
| GHL wrote: |
No, you don't need a home country PGCE, but if you get the PGDE your bit of paper is only good for the NET scheme in HK. A scheme for which there's a low turnover rate and stiff competition to be hired. An international school in HK would want a PGCE + experience.
Essentially the PGDE is quite a risky option. You're investing lots of money and time into something that only makes you qualified for a few select jobs.
Especially if you're in one of the aforementioned entry level jobs. As is 42,000HKD for the PGDE for that matter. It's a cost that is beyond the reach of many because of other commitments. Not everyone is single, enjoys living in a house share and eating noodles every night. Some have other responsibilities or hell, just simply aren't willing to compromise on the basic things in life such as your own apartment and 3 decent meals a day. And why should they? |
...erm. To give them themselves a better chance of getting on the scheme? If wages have, and continue to, stagnated in these entry level jobs, and the person working them can already just afford their place to live and three square meals...how are they expected to move up and out of that without further qualifications. Where will they live and what will they eat 5 or 10 years from now? Trust me, having to endure such harships (and like I stated, fewer holidays abroad and a few less mad nights out would do the trick) is easier when you're young than when you're older.
I think we're just coming from completely different life perspectives. I agree the system is imperfect (and that is being polite!). However, I'd rather work within it to try and have the best career I can in this field. For me, that meant improving my qualifications while I worked. I made some minor sacrifices, but nothing I really missed. It has paid off big time and I'm thankful for that. If I stay on the scheme for 3 contracts I will save enough money to set me up for my retirement (I won't be able to retire at that stage, but I will have put away enough to set up the serious money, have couple of properties back home etc.)
I want to stress to everyone else reading this: GHL and CEB are dramatically overstating the level of competition for getting a job on the NET scheme. Don't be discouraged, it can be done. Dozens of new teachers are added each year, and frankly there are no where near as many quality candidates as people think. |
Sharing flats and eating noodles is for college students. I certainly wouldn't do it, especially not when there's only 30 jobs a year on the NET scheme, with like 1000 people in the EDB pool. It's not like you're guaranteed a place on the scheme with your PGDE. In fact, you're much more likely NOT to get on the scheme - just look at all the many people in the pool who never even get interviews, let alone jobs!
Not to mention, all it takes is the HK government to drop the NET scheme, and your PGDE is kinda worthless. It's no good for proper international schools and it's not like a language centre is going to pay you much more for having one. The PGDE gets you access to a very niche set of jobs. It's clearly worked out for you and that's great, but there's a lot more it won't have worked out for.
I actually think you're better off enduring hardships when older than younger. Your younger years are the best of your life when you're in the greatest health. Don't waste them suffering for some 'future' that may or may not come to pass. Go on those holidays abroad. Hit the town and get drunk with your mates. The time for suffering is in your 40s and 50s. Don't waste your youth working like a dog to save money. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| LarssonCrew wrote: |
| My contract also includes a 15% yearly salary increase. |
A fair point. But at what level would that salary max out to? It seems to me that you are fairly near the top income level already, perhaps you can add another 10-15K on top in total, but that's still nowhere near the top income levels in HK.
| LarssonCrew wrote: |
Let's say a teacher in HK made 40000 RMB [45000 HKD] a month, except the air pollution, who would have a better quality of life with savings potential?
I can spend 7500 RMB a month on housing, plus spent 6000 RMB monthly, and still pocket around 20,000 in savings, that's SAVING 25,000 HKD a month about. |
Aren't you forgetting about income tax? Once you start getting into decent figures in China the rate ramps up pretty quickly to above 40% correct? In HK, it would be unusual to pay more than 15-20% even at the higher income levels. So taxes in China would take a big chunk out of what you would be able to save, thus levelling some of the potential difference there.
In any case, I left out savings in the thread title on purpose as the amount each individual can save is very subjective and dependent on lifestyle, prior debts, dependents etc etc. So for the purpose of this thread I was hoping to focus just on income potential as that is a bit more clear cut.
| LarssonCrew wrote: |
| Now, could a FT in HK on 45,000 save 25000 from that? Probably not, and most certainly without a nice home to boot. |
I know several teachers who would strongly disagree with you on that and could certainly save that amount on a 45K income. |
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