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Yes, they are serious..........
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victory7



Joined: 22 Mar 2016
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Yes, they are serious.......... Reply with quote

For those who want to live and work in Japan, esp Tokyo, and for those with some experience of living elsewhere in Japan - just check out craigslist in Tokyo, the English version.

It gives a very clear view into what's up re the decline and fall of the English language industry in Tokyo. Just now I read another exploitation bid pretending to be an English teaching job.

Woo hoo - you can teach a group of kids and adults in Shinagawa, one of Tokyo's cental wards, at a climbing facility. You must be proficient in Japanese speaking ability and you'll sometimes teach adults as well as kids. Great - sounds like the basis for success with mixed age disparities and mixed levels.

Oh yeah, and they will generously pay you 1,000 yen per hour for this mess and trying to make it work. Around 9 bucks US, less in some other currencies.

I guess the idea is to feel grateful for this particular bottom of the barrel when you look at ads like the Mom who wants you to teach her beginner kids at home somewhere in Itabashi on the Mita subway line for 1,200 yen or 1,000 yen - but she makes it clear she only wants to pay 1,000 per hour.

This lovely potential employer wants you to come separately 3 x a week for 1 hour on those 3 days. And to make it even more of a sweet deal, she starts her latest craigslist ad on September 1st by more or less attacking the foreigners she expects to apply for this 'job'. She writes something along the lines of 'None of this and none of that. Don't ask me for whatever.'

I guess she's being an honest exploiter but the arrogance is something dandy. And these people have plenty of company. Even if you're desperate, please don't go for these jobs on craigslist. Let the posters assume, demand and keep expecting to grab English lessons - just don't be the ones to oblige them.
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mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1477
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you are starting to see are jobs which pay 3000 per hour to not be the norm.
Many now have pay at 2500 yen or even less than 2000.
You have to consider the commute. Less than 3000 is not worth it.

Things have just gotten worse over the last ten years.
I got turned down for a job teaching two boys (11 and 12 years old) who are going to the US in the fall. The job calls for teaching 5-8 hours per day, about twice a week or more.
I asked for 5,000 per hour. It was quite odd as the family went through an education company in the US and they refuse to pay for transportation.
They live out in Odawara.

Hmm. Two unmotivated boys. 5 hours of English, teach reading and writing, but make it fun. Talk about Halloween and Thanksgiving, blah, blah, blah.
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TrampledKlown



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you guys are trolling.

Non-native STUDENTS in Japan teach English for 20,000/hour.

If you're a native speaker with no teaching experience, you can teach online for $20-$30 USD/hour
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Vince



Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 541
Location: U.S.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no question that the TEFL market in Japan isn't as lucrative as it used to be. But the examples above strike me as particularly ugly, and not representative of the average TEFL opportunity.

Last edited by Vince on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Maitoshi



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 712
Location: 何処でも

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't think they are trolling. These kind of job adverts are around and they remind me of some business owners that complain that they can't attract and keep qualified people, but fail to see a possible correlation between the overall compensation and the kinds of candidates they attract. I've seen one employer post a position with a three-stage employment process, including document review, interview and demonstration lesson for a one-off weekend seminar that paid less per hour than a typical table-talk conversation lesson. Granted, this was a community center, but it's not hard to see why so few people applied, let alone people with the desired qualifications. I doubt these organizations go through the trouble of even informal market research, so it's not hard to believe that individuals could hold perspectives that are so divorced from market conditions.
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victory7



Joined: 22 Mar 2016
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrampledKlown wrote:
I think you guys are trolling.

Non-native STUDENTS in Japan teach English for 20,000/hour.

If you're a native speaker with no teaching experience, you can teach online for $20-$30 USD/hour


Nope, you are a lazy troll who from your other posts elsewhere on the caf knows nada about working and living in Japan. So stop it already - you've never worked here and maybe have never visited here.

If you're not too lazy to visit craigslist for Tokyo then you will find motherloads of evidence for what those of us who actually work and live in Japan know. About 12 - 10 years ago, many native English speakers with real working experience could expect to get a wage of at least 8,000 or 4,000 yen per hour for private teaching or for part-time jobs.

That just kept dropping and dropping and became worse and worse with the influx of mostly North American college graduates with no jobs - and more came via their contacts on facebook. Actually I'm not dissing these people for coming to Japan - why not? But the fact is their lack of experience and skills has led to a sharp drop in salaries or hourly wages for native English speakers that can actually can teach and have an employment record in both their home countries and Japan etc.

As for non native speakers - more horse manure from you. I am hearing first-hand from Japanese people who also learn via the net that they can study English for as little as 200 yen per hour from non native speakers in the world. In Japan, the low hourly rate that so many Japanese people and businesses are offering for English teaching can be dropped if the teacher is a non native English speaker.

To everyone reading this who is not in Japan but is interested - check out sites such as craigslist before you come. It used to have so many part time jobs some years back that at least could pay you some worthwhile money.

But hourly rates should never be below 2,000 yen an hour and for people who actually can teach that is peanuts but it is the rate many good English teachers in English languages schools are being paid.
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Maitoshi



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 712
Location: 何処でも

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed that people ought not to take less than 2,000 yen per hour if they can help it. Just to make an obvious point, though, just because positions are posted at these rates doesn't mean the poster is receiving interest in the position. Some people offer their "treasures" on Craigslist, as well, and don't get responses from interested buyers until they drop the price. If these positions are being filled at these rates, I wonder what kind of applicants they are getting and how long they are being retained.
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mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1477
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2,000 for someone with a BA?
It used to be 3,000 (at least) for those with a MA,
and business English used to be 7,000 ten years ago.
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Maitoshi



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 712
Location: 何処でも

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I hear stories from 昭和外人 that salaries for university used to be close to double what they are now and often for less work...
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taikibansei



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 726
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitoshi wrote:
Just to make an obvious point, though, just because positions are posted at these rates doesn't mean the poster is receiving interest in the position. Some people offer their "treasures" on Craigslist, as well, and don't get responses from interested buyers until they drop the price.


Quoted for truth. Also, why are "qualified teachers" searching for jobs on...Craigslist? You wouldn't do that (and expect a decent salary) in your home country, correct? People advertising on Craigslist are looking for the cheapest deal possible...often impossibly cheap. Why would you go there to find work?

If you're really qualified--e.g., a licensed teacher, or have a recognized cert with Japanese ability and a proven track record as an ALT, or have an MA/PhD with publications and Japanese language ability--there are other places to find work (that have been shared here again and again). If you just have a BA and little else...search wherever you can, but don't expect to become rich.
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taikibansei



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 726
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitoshi wrote:
And I hear stories from 昭和外人 that salaries for university used to be close to double what they are now and often for less work...


Nah, that's a myth. They're talking about the 外国人教師 positions, which were yearly contracts at a great starting salary but with no pension payments (and often small or no pay raises). So you'd start off much higher than Japanese faculty, but the latter would exceed your salary when they hit about 50...all the while earning pensions as well. Nowadays, the salaries for everybody hired full-time 専任 are the same (for that institution), with pension payments part of the deal. Even with the pay cuts of recent years, assuming you work to retirement here, you'll be topping 10 million yen by the end at most places (more than 外国人教師 ever made).

Yes, back in the day, the 外国人教師 used to brag about their light work loads--they were literally banned from attending faculty meetings, among other things! Typically, they'd be older foreigners with just an MA (or only a BA), no Japanese ability, no publications, etc., etc. MEXT started getting rid of them in about 1994, with all but a few stragglers gone by 2001. As I had to do all the committee and administrative work that our 外国人教師 could not, I was glad to see him gone...to be replaced by somebody who could do the work.
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Maitoshi



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 712
Location: 何処でも

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's good to know, so thanks! I figured I'd just entered the scene a few decades too late. Regarding salary, though, topping out at just under 10 million sounds right at a national university. This can vary quite a bit at private unis, though. Private unis tend to pay quite a bit more, at least from very a very informal and quite limited survey conducted by yours truly (read: my being nosey after a few too many drinks).
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The Transformer



Joined: 03 Mar 2017
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those kinds of rates of 2,000-2,500 yen per hour have been the norm for "bog standard" eikaiwa/English teaching for quite some time.

When you think about it, the work isn't worth any more than that, given that it's low-skilled, and the main aspect of the job is simply talking to people and entertaining them. Japanese teachers of English at eikaiwa earn less than that, and reception staff even less, perhaps around 1,000 yen an hour, similar to other low-skilled jobs like waitering, bartending, burger flipping etc.

I think it's a good thing that the days of the over-inflated eikaiwa bubble are well-and-truly over. It stops people from dawdling in it as a pseudo-"career" for years on end the way they used to do, and it makes people realize sooner rather than later what an exploitative, stinking criminal racket the majority of the eikaiwa "industry" really is.
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taikibansei



Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 726
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maitoshi wrote:
That's good to know, so thanks! I figured I'd just entered the scene a few decades too late. Regarding salary, though, topping out at just under 10 million sounds right at a national university. This can vary quite a bit at private unis, though. Private unis tend to pay quite a bit more, at least from very a very informal and quite limited survey conducted by yours truly (read: my being nosey after a few too many drinks).


Hah! Yeah, those surveys over drinks can be hit-and-miss, with quoted salaries tending to rise with participant blood alcohol levels. Wink I've posted a link to the national average (public and private) before. However, if your informants live and work in the Kansai/Kanto areas, they may indeed be earning (well) over 10 million yen a year. Most of the highest paying privates are clustered in and around Tokyo, Kyoto and Osaka--the highest pay over 12 million yen a year once you pass 55.

Out in the sticks...private universities often pay much less than public institutions.
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Maitoshi



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 712
Location: 何処でも

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This!
taikibansei wrote:
Also, why are "qualified teachers" searching for jobs on...Craigslist? You wouldn't do that (and expect a decent salary) in your home country, correct? People advertising on Craigslist are looking for the cheapest deal possible...often impossibly cheap. Why would you go there to find work
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