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JohnRambo
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 183
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 Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: Good universities to work for and pay |
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| Hi. I am currently teaching in Turkey. I also taught in South Korea. I have an M.A. in TESOL from the US and am a dual citizen of both Canada and the U.S. I am fluent in English, French, Arabic, and close to that in Turkish. I am also certified in social studies and French. What are the good universities out there and what is the pay? I know life in Saudi can be tough, but the money is good. It is not at all in Turkey due to the horribe currency. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnRambo wrote: |
| What are the good universities out there and what is the pay? I know life in Saudi can be tough, but the money is good. |
Life in conservative Saudi Arabia isn't difficult. I'm a single female and I managed just fine in the Kingdom. But if constant partying and being publicly outspoken are high on your list of priorities, the Gulf isn't for you.
As for jobs... The better university positions are filled as direct hire. Recruitment in the region for these openings is usually during TESOL Arabia's annual job fair in March. Pay is calculated per a number of factors (including verified previous employment), so salary generally isn't indicated in job ads. Scroll up in this forum to the sticky, "The skinny on direct-hire university opportunities," for more info. BTW, Saudi Arabia is home to many nationals, including from the MENA, so there's no need to highlight your non-English language skills on your CV unless required for the position you're targeting. However, you can include this info at the end of your CV.
If you have current US teaching licenses for social studies and French plus relevant experience, take a look at Teach Away, Footprints, and Seek Teachers for k12 international school jobs in the UAE. Ads usually state the pay range.
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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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| Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: Good universities to work for and pay |
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| JohnRambo wrote: |
| I am fluent in English, French, Arabic, and close to that in Turkish. |
Although many have disagreed with me, I still believe that declaring yourself 'fluent" in Arabic on a CV can have unexpected disadvantages and unfavorable consequences when applying for a TESL job particularly in the Gulf and especially in KSA.
Unlike in America, where the phrase "FLUENCY IN SPANISH A PLUS" is seen everywhere in job ads, the same doesn't hold true in the Gulf vis a vis Arabic. There are several reasons why this should be so but I'll only discuss one here.
Because true fluency in English/Arabic is such a rare skill set, you will find yourself constantly "outsourced" to other offices and sections of your employer where your skills are needed. This practice, as happened to me, can easily balloon out of control to the point the job becomes more of a translator/interpreter rather than that of a teacher.
This doesn't always happen, obviously, but it can become an issue especially since there never is any "extra pay" involved in any of this. You're suddenly the "translator" for the dept. but you're expected to perform all the duties of your teaching position at the same time.
There's also the issue of "unrealistic expectations". As you may know, just because you're fluent in a language other than English doesn't mean you can translate a financial, medical or engineering text from English to that language or vice versa without extensive, time consuming, involved (and expensive) special training. But that's often the kind of thing you're expected to do.
There are other issues as I said, but I won't go into that here.
I myself do not nor do I advise Arabic speakers to make that skill known in cases like this. It won't necessarily increase your chances for getting the TESL job......in fact, it might be a deterrent insofar as an employer might not believe you're a native speaker of English. In most people's minds, you simply cannot be a native speaker of English and speak fluent Arabic at the same time.
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Good universities to work for and pay |
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| hash wrote: |
| JohnRambo wrote: |
| I am fluent in English, French, Arabic, and close to that in Turkish. |
[b]Although many have disagreed with me |
I don't. What you describe is what I have witnessed. Don't declare it. |
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JohnRambo
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the tips. I can delete the part where I state that I know Arabic. Is it fine to leave French and Turkish on there or should I just have no mention of the languages I know at all? I think it is dumb to not want to hire someone just because they can speak the students' L1. However, it is good to know, none-the-less. I will delete any rerenferences to my knowledge of Arabic. What if they ask me? Should I lie and say I don't know any Arabic? I could just say I am an Arab-American and know some of the language since my parents spoke it.
As far as partying, I don't really do that anymore. I just want to work for a decent employer/university. I am not so interest in working for a second school and what not. I haven't taught high school students in many years. I have been teaching at universities for the past 6 years.
I have seen job ads on Dave's for positions in Saudi and also Oman. I am not sure, of course, which universities are good to work for since I have never lived in Saudi. As you all know, there can often be many shoddy universities out there that seek to exploit people. That is something I want to avoid. |
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In the heat of the moment
Joined: 22 May 2015
Posts: 393
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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John, I would say I can speak and understand well enough to teach French, have picked up a lot of Turkish while living there, and I'm starting to learn Arabic. This shows some encouraging signs but avoids the negatives (apart from being the in house translator, a DoS might think you'd use too much Arabic in class - a big 'no no').
Sorry I can't advise which universities are good for you, as I've only worked in the Kingdom in the ME and my experience/qualifications are different to yours. Also changes are allegedly afoot as to what qualifications are generally requested in some ME countries. You're probably better off applying for a few roles in each country, get feedback from the recruiter/HR as to if you're suitable, and go to the relevant forum here for thoughts. Once you have an idea of salary, housing, holidays, city etc. you're offered, there's more chance people will be willing to give their opinions. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Another downside to admitting to a knowledge of Arabic is that you will be landed with the classes of Zero-English students ! (Yes there will be those !) |
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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnRambo wrote: |
| Is it fine to leave French and Turkish on there or should I just have no mention of the languages I know at all? |
If you have an Arabic (sounding) last name, like Maalouf, Masri or (heaven forbid) Qahtani, the question of your fluency in Arabic is going to inevitably come up....not necessarily at the interview level, but throughout your stay in the Kingdom.....especially in class where it might even become an object of, let's say, commentary. You can't have a surname like Khoury and not expect some reaction, especially in class. So be prepared for it.
I'd simply say your grandparents spoke Arabic but you know just a few words....something like that. That's reasonable and acceptable and should squelch any further discussion on the topic. At the same time, I wouldn't deny a Mideast origin for your family....you probably wouldn't be believed anyway.
My resume no longer lists my languages - any of them. I found it frightens some would be employers or their expectations of what I can do become unreasonable.
Unless the job description specifically mentions a language as a requirement or a strong point, I'd leave even a complacent but waning French out of my resume
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Last edited by hash on Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnRambo wrote: |
| Is it fine to leave French and Turkish on there or should I just have no mention of the languages I know at all? I think it is dumb to not want to hire someone just because they can speak the students' L1. However, it is good to know, none-the-less. I will delete any rerenferences to my knowledge of Arabic. What if they ask me? Should I lie and say I don't know any Arabic? I could just say I am an Arab-American and know some of the language since my parents spoke it. |
Seriously, KSA universities attract plenty of bilingual English-Arabic speakers from the West who claim Arab heritage. Whether you're fluent or "know some" Arabic or can speak Turkish and French doesn't matter; it won't make you unique or more appealing to potential university employers seeking English teachers. Plus, many bilingual nationals from other Arab countries as well as Saudi Arabia also teach EFL.
Many Saudi students struggle with English because their secondary school teachers used Arabic to teach EFL. Therefore, you're expected to teach in English and avoid using Arabic in class (and on campus) as much as possible.
| and wrote: |
| I am not sure, of course, which universities are good to work for since I have never lived in Saudi. As you all know, there can often be many shoddy universities out there that seek to exploit people. That is something I want to avoid. |
You're focusing on the wrong thing. Some universities hire teachers directly, while others solely use contracting companies for staffing needs. The latter are the source of the majority of complaints throughout this forum, which is why I suggested you target direct-hire opportunities. Again, see the sticky in this forum.
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| Seriously, KSA universities attract plenty of bilingual English-Arabic speakers from the West who claim Arab heritage. Whether you're fluent or "know some" Arabic or can speak Turkish and French doesn't matter; it won't make you unique or more appealing to potential university employers seeking English teachers. |
it doesn't matter in terms of applying, right. But it will likely matter in terms of what roles you get given on the job. All the bilingual westerners I worked with were given the remedial students (great fun!) and constantly had requests for translating powerpoints, notices, documents, etc. If you don't want that added to your workload, don't declare it. If you do want to open yourself up to that, go ahead. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| sicklyman wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Seriously, KSA universities attract plenty of bilingual English-Arabic speakers from the West who claim Arab heritage. Whether you're fluent or "know some" Arabic or can speak Turkish and French doesn't matter; it won't make you unique or more appealing to potential university employers seeking English teachers. |
it doesn't matter in terms of applying, right. But it will likely matter in terms of what roles you get given on the job. All the bilingual westerners I worked with were given the remedial students (great fun!) and constantly had requests for translating powerpoints, notices, documents, etc. If you don't want that added to your workload, don't declare it. If you do want to open yourself up to that, go ahead. |
Uh, my point was that mentioning his other language skills on his CV isn't necessary or relevant to the job. It won't help him stand out from other applicants since KSA has many English-Arabic bilingual teachers.
The university I worked for didn't have teachers translating documents, ppts, course materials, etc. We had curriculum committees that created content to supplement the lessons. Committee participation was always voluntary and equated to a reduced teaching load. |
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JohnRambo
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| sicklyman wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Seriously, KSA universities attract plenty of bilingual English-Arabic speakers from the West who claim Arab heritage. Whether you're fluent or "know some" Arabic or can speak Turkish and French doesn't matter; it won't make you unique or more appealing to potential university employers seeking English teachers. |
it doesn't matter in terms of applying, right. But it will likely matter in terms of what roles you get given on the job. All the bilingual westerners I worked with were given the remedial students (great fun!) and constantly had requests for translating powerpoints, notices, documents, etc. If you don't want that added to your workload, don't declare it. If you do want to open yourself up to that, go ahead. |
Uh, my point was that mentioning his other language skills on his CV isn't necessary or relevant to the job. It won't help him stand out from other applicants since KSA has many English-Arabic bilingual teachers.
The university I worked for didn't have teachers translating documents, ppts, course materials, etc. We had curriculum committees that created content to supplement the lessons. Committee participation was always voluntary and equated to a reduced teaching load. |
On a side note, I know that people say that people often cannot speak English well because their instructors use the L1 excessively. Some researchers say that some limited use of it is not a big deal. I, for instance, know a fair bit of Turkish. I sometimes provide the definition in Turkish, especially for the lower levels, but I don't have a conversation with them in their own language. They speak to me in English.
Anyway, I did scrub all mention of the languages that I know except I mentioned any certifications I may have in either French or Turkish in the education section. I see nothing wrong with that.
I did look in the sticky about being directly hired. I saw that people mentioned looking on-line to see which universities were hiring directly and going to TESOL Arabia, if possible. I suppose I'll have to research this forum and see which universities treat their staff well and pay reasonably well. I'll take some notes.
I have heard that there has been some increase in taxes to discourage foreigners from living in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean that someone wouldn't be able to afford having a spouse? I heard that bills are going to be super expensive.
Anyway, thanks for being good spirits and answering my questions. You're all very nice and obliging; I appreciate that. Some people can be a little snarky, for instance, on the Korea forum. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnRambo wrote: |
| I sometimes provide the definition in Turkish, especially for the lower levels, but I don't have a conversation with them in their own language. They speak to me in English. |
Try doing that with a class of 13 nationalities, 10 different languages. That's often the case for those of us who teach/taught in our home country. I used images, acted out concepts, and gave examples in English for my low-level, multinational classes in the US. Although I'm functional in Arabic, I refrained from using it while teaching in KSA. Those colleagues who did ended up with students begging them for explanations in Arabic. Anyway, EFL teachers are not expected to know the students' L1.
| and wrote: |
| I have heard that there has been some increase in taxes to discourage foreigners from living in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean that someone wouldn't be able to afford having a spouse? I heard that bills are going to be super expensive. |
You're probably referring to the VAT. See Selective tax begins June 2017; VAT effective January 2018. The cost of living in KSA is low, while salaries (especially for MA TESOL holders) are likely higher than what you currently get in Turkey. Housing and other bennies are covered depending on the employer. Of course, your spending habits will determine your expenses. But if you have school-age dependents and a spouse, focus on those direct-hire universities that offer some family bennies. KFUPM is one.
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Xie Lin
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Some researchers say that some limited use of it is not a big deal. I, for instance, know a fair bit of Turkish. I sometimes provide the definition in Turkish, especially for the lower levels, but I don't have a conversation with them in their own language. They speak to me in English.
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This is in line with current thinking. There has been a shift away from rigid no-word-of-L1-must-ever-pass-my-lips thinking, crediting the teacher with enough common sense to distinguish when keeping the lesson plan on track is a better use of class time and focus. While some decry even the occasional word of L1 as embarking upon a slippery slope of methodological impurity, recent research suggests that purity for purity's sake is not necessarily the last word.  The danger, of course, is getting lazy, but it sounds as if you've found an effective balance that works well for you. |
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Xie Lin
Joined: 21 Oct 2011
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Try doing that with a class of 13 nationalities, 10 different languages.
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Why on earth would he do that?  He's clearly not talking about an ESL setting.
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I used images, acted out concepts, and gave examples in English for my low-level, multinational classes in the US.
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Well, yes . . . this is how most of us do it.
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Although I'm functional in Arabic, I refrained from using it while teaching in KSA. Those colleagues who did ended up with students begging them for explanations in Arabic.
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This is not particularly difficult for an experienced teacher to manage, or even to put to good use. |
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