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exfalso
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:19 am Post subject: Uni or Public - Z visa before or after arrival... |
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I've not worked in China before; but 3 other countries I have. Not am I, therefore, new to working or living in another country.
At the moment I have two offers in China:
The first is at a university; the net salary per month is low, but so is the workload; whereas, the public school salary is higher, with more hours per week. The hourly rate at the university is greater; but, not as many hours.
Anyone have any opinions on what is a better place to work at? Will it be easy to add some privates or something to bump up the net amount I can get each month should I choose the university position?
The public school is in Shanghai; the university, further south. I have been reading many posts on this forum about living in different places and how expenses are different in bigger cities; but, I am not so concerned about this now.
Secondly, now that all my documents are prepared - notarized, legalized etc., the public school position in Shanghai is asking me to come to China on a tourist visa then convert it to a Z-visa once I arrive.
I've never gone to a place to work without having been given a work visa in my passport before I left my own country.
I did some research: some say, it is easy to transfer L to Z; some say, no; others, yes, but a side trip to Hong Kong is required. Others, still, say it is hard to say for sure for the rules change or are unclear (I've lived in a post-soviet republic so this sort of thing I am more than familiar with).
Should I view this request to do a visa transfer as a red flag? Or is this pretty normal?
I am leaning toward the public school in Shanghai; but, not knowing what I do not know, I am wondering if there are some important things I am overlooking.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
ExFalso |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:02 am Post subject: |
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This subject has been traversed many times.
The risk-free route (as far as anything can be in China) is the Z visa in your passport before leaving home. This, as in other countries, is converted to a RP on arrival. There is a medical involved (in addition to the one undertaken at home for the Z) but all costs are borne by employer. You pay for home country stuff.
Occasionally there is a whiff of excitement when someone posts that they got a L to Z visa conversion in HK.
On closer examination there seems always to be some special circumstances surrounding the L to Z conversion.
Any school that offers the L visa route is unlikely to have the required permission to hire foreigners and a Z visa sponsored by them would be knocked back by your local Chinese consulate.
There's really only one offer on the table and that's the uni.
As to privates. Illegal but we all do them.
Best |
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exfalso
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Non Sequitur wrote: |
Any school that offers the L visa route is unlikely to have the required permission to hire foreigners and a Z visa sponsored by them would be knocked back by your local Chinese consulate.
Best |
Thanks for the response Non Sequitur. I have been reading ad nauseam about these issues; but, the crunch time is coming and I need to make a decision.
Is there some data base that lists places that have the required permissions; or, is there some way to determine this? I have seen a few threads about dodgy recruiters and gangs of identity thieves; but, I have not been able to find any reference or reviews of either of the schools; I have searched the forum here plus other forums and there is scant information about either.
The company in Shanghai, for example, lists this as its website: http://en.shyulun.com/ ; and this is the school they wish me to work at: http://en.shyulun.com/school.aspx?pid=4 Of course, anyone can make a fancy website; but, I don't want to take on any more risk than I have to.
This is not, as far as I can tell, a private or 'hagwon' type institution. But I am unsure how to verify their credentials.
I don't think I am worried about the bona fides of the university - Huizhou University; and the foreign guy I spoke with there was pretty nice; though I did find one negative review about the place on some other forum, but only one.
If anyone has any experience with either of these two places I would certainly be pleased to hear his or her views.
Last edited by exfalso on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mixal
Joined: 08 Apr 2015
Posts: 80
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exfalso
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have been dealing with the agency; the contract has their name on it. I have read those links on Wikipedia about the school; it was those that seemed to add to the legitimacy of the whole affair; but found no reports of any teachers who have worked with them.
I'll look around for more reviews about the university; I only found one large thread so far, several years old. |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the wiki link for Huizhou U.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huizhou_University
I see you will be contracting to the agent but they certainly won't have authority to hire foreigners. The additional downside to this situation is that you may be required to teach over different campuses with commuting at your cost and time.
I think the problems at the school are structural and it's your butt on the line should anything go wrong. Your consulate won't want to know you either if you knowingly worked illegally.
Every uni has bad reports, but that's usually peripheral stuff. Water off without notice. Short notice of events or class cancellations etc. |
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exfalso
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I did not speak personally with any foreigner currently employed by the public school or that agency; but, I really don't like the idea of playing visa games when I am out of the country.
I read through that link for the university. Thanks. I am certainly adjusting my position now after all these comments.
The fellow at the university I spoke with has been there for a few years; so, that might be a good sign. |
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, Shanghai has liberalized this rule as they seem to have some common sense. They seem to have realized that the new national process was affecting their ability to attract and retain the foreigner.
Unless they have changed it back, it seems to be the only jurisdiction (above board at least) where you can come on a tourist visa and it will be converted right there. I would still do some googling with a filter of the last six months and Shanghai before moving forward.
Best! |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Jim's comment is one of those 'whiffs of excitement' I mentioned:
'Occasionally there is a whiff of excitement when someone posts that they got a L to Z visa conversion in HK.
On closer examination there seems always to be some special circumstances surrounding the L to Z conversion'.
Shanghai is a special case in most things and I expect Jim's info is valid. But would a recruitment agent have the guanxi to access that level of decisionmaking in the bureaucracy?
Shanghai is a 'special circumstance' in my view and Guagdong is a whole different bowl of rice. |
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Mixal
Joined: 08 Apr 2015
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| What a Westerner unused to China would find worth reporting, is run of the mill stuff to someone with a couple of years experience. |
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exfalso
Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| jimpellow wrote: |
Actually, Shanghai has liberalized this rule as they seem to have some common sense. They seem to have realized that the new national process was affecting their ability to attract and retain the foreigner.
Best! |
Yes; there are a few threads, not old as well, where this was stated. But, if there is some sort of problem - a documents is rejected or there is some surprise request, then I'd be SOL. Indeed, they just sent me another request this morning for something that I thought was already taken care of.
There is a thing, among governments and bureaucracies everywhere, where they tell you what is necessary or required - but only partially; so, you are always trying to play catch up and are never sure you have all that is required even when you ask again and again. It is as if people don't know the difference between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition.
I'd prefer to reduce this risk; hence my changing attitude toward the university position.
I was working in a place where fellows came in with a different visa than required for working; and there was a constant annoyance and expense having to play visa games every two months trying to get things straightened out.
So, it appears I am in something of a dilemma: a dodgy visa issue with some unknown agency or a 3rd rate university with poop-stained lodging.
The contract in Shanghai allows for 3000 for a lodging allowance; whereas the university would provide on campus housing. 3000 - is that sufficient for Shanghai?
There is always a dice roll when taking up jobs in foreign places.
Thanks for the info. |
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thechangling
Joined: 11 Apr 2013
Posts: 276
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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The uni job is usually the 'softest' landing in China and as other posters alluded to, the Z visa should be in passport in your home country (from the Chinese embassy) before you get on the plane.
There's screeds of info about working at Huizhou on this site (and others) so research it fully. Don't come via agents as a general rule either because your salary may have been lowered depending on if the agent is your salary payer. |
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geosmiley
Joined: 25 Jan 2016
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:10 am Post subject: Whiff of excitement... |
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| The "whiff of excitement" advice is, given my experiences over the last two years, good advice. China is definitely making the Z visa process more systematic. country wide. There is very little flexibility left in the procedures leading up to a Z visa. I wouldn't leave my home country without the correct visa in my passport and I wouldn't deal with middlemen. In my opinion, if an employer in China uses an agency it isn't for a good reason. Cheers! |
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Kalkstein
Joined: 25 Aug 2016
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| exfalso wrote: |
| jimpellow wrote: |
Actually, Shanghai has liberalized this rule as they seem to have some common sense. They seem to have realized that the new national process was affecting their ability to attract and retain the foreigner.
Best! |
Yes; there are a few threads, not old as well, where this was stated. But, if there is some sort of problem - a documents is rejected or there is some surprise request, then I'd be SOL. Indeed, they just sent me another request this morning for something that I thought was already taken care of.
There is a thing, among governments and bureaucracies everywhere, where they tell you what is necessary or required - but only partially; so, you are always trying to play catch up and are never sure you have all that is required even when you ask again and again. It is as if people don't know the difference between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition.
I'd prefer to reduce this risk; hence my changing attitude toward the university position.
I was working in a place where fellows came in with a different visa than required for working; and there was a constant annoyance and expense having to play visa games every two months trying to get things straightened out.
So, it appears I am in something of a dilemma: a dodgy visa issue with some unknown agency or a 3rd rate university with poop-stained lodging.
The contract in Shanghai allows for 3000 for a lodging allowance; whereas the university would provide on campus housing. 3000 - is that sufficient for Shanghai?
There is always a dice roll when taking up jobs in foreign places.
Thanks for the info. |
3000 is enough if you want to share a place in Shanghai otherwise you are looking at about double that for somewhere that's decent to yourself. It depends where in Shanghai really, I know people who are paying 20000+ for rent in good areas.
As for your situation, I'd not even consider coming here without a Z visa, there are too many employers that say this and then never provide the Z visa. It's easy enough to get the Z visa and if the employer is that serious about hiring you they will wait a month or so. It also means you are looking at an extra trip to HK (and even then I've heard instances of this being denied).
I don't know the exact details of both contracts but personally I prefer university positions anyway as they come with longer holidays and more free time. It really depends on you yourself. If you need the money and don't think you can get students outside of class, go with the school position. If you are more interested in free time and making extra money outside of class go with the university. It also depends on the locations.
I think the potential earning from university jobs is way higher though if you're working with your own students. |
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