Job Discussion Forums

[Micro67]

[quote="lexpatI'm a writer and I know a number of writers in Bangkok. Here? Puhleeze. It sort of reminds me of some hipster wannabe neigborhood back in San Francisco. Lots of people making eye contact over empty notebooks. Actually, I'm being too negative. Now that places like the lower east side of Manhattan, the left bank in Paris, and Haight Ashbury are too expensive this is probably not a bad alternative...but the actual sophistication level is no where near what it is in Thailand, nor is the expat community as integrated into the life of the city. VERY transient here. (And the weather sucks).[/quote]

I can't speak to the situation in Hanoi, however one of the selling points to Saigon is that the ex-pat scene is not as developed as other places in Asia. There are less places that cater specifically to the long term ex-pat. Other cities seem to have an entire, prefabricated cubby hole for ex-pats to safely nuzzle into.

That is not meant as a dig. It just means that Saigon remains fairly uncharted ground, IMHO.

[lexpat]

Well...recognizing that many of the people who follow these threads are reading them elsewhere I feel obliged to be pretty straight forward about the situation in Southeast Asia. I spent a couple of years in Bangkok, a year in Cambodia, and now six months in Vietnam and the similarities are a lot more striking than the differences. (I also spent a couple years teaching in Spain and another year in Latin America). Let me preface my remarks by saying that I came to Asia basically because it's cheap and I knew I could live here without working much and that this would enable me to write and work on my own projects.

Now, that much is true. You can live here without working anywhere near as hard as is customary in the West. If that's your reason for coming, than I recommend it. Work really is easy to find most places and if your goal is making money and you can put up with the sort of foreigner who resides here and keep on mission than you should come. Also, if you have student loans then it's a good way to pay them off. No question, the income to expenses ratio is remarkable. Good place to be if money issues predominate and you need to save.

But, and in keeping with our Western heritage, it's a big butt, if you come looking for anything else (cultural engagement, say. Or an experience that will enrich and prepare you for LIFE), I suggest you give Asia a pass. Generally speaking, most of the people who come to Asia to 'teach' come because they wish to avoid the value system of the West and want to take advantage of their elevated status here. Now, on the surface that may seem a good thing. But actually, the way it plays out is that Asia serves to allow people to front themselves in sorta odd ways that aren't particularly healthy. Hanoi for me, for instance, has been interesting, if for no other reason than I've seen that women can do the same thing that men do in places like Bangkok. I've met so many average looking twenty something girls who basically are here because they enjoy attracting the attention of the Viet men, who find them exotic. They are here for Power. Maybe it's just me, but I don't know any that left happy that they were able to exercise that power. Most were either disillusioned or hurt or what is worse, convinced that the way to deal with the world is through manipulation.

I know other guys who've become addicted to heroin, ya ba (a nasty upper drug), booze, and hookers. Most found their time here a kind of blur, and to be honest, I don't think it brought them closer to where they wanted to be. They were 'accepted,' 'celebrated,' what have you for being pretty, Western faced, having a teachers income, etc. But I think most of them found it a pretty hollow victory.

I've met more people who see other people as a means to an end than I ever have in the West, more people who've sunk into themselves and think they've discovered some 'truth' about life, i.e. that we are all atomized beings who need to do whatever to get over, than I have anywhere else.

[ghostdog]

The ex-pat scene in Saigon is "not developed"? Are you kidding? Pham Ngu Lao? The ghetto? It's not sophisticated, and not particularly charming, but it certainly is developed. People slide into what passes for a "scene" and never find their way out again.

Am curious about lexpat's comment re teaching in Hanoi, since HCMC is largely not a market for serious teachers--more for backpackers, newbies with freshly minted teaching certificates of some (any) sort, and people who want to hang for a while and then go somewhere else. Could it be that the entire country pays lip service to teachers and teaching but scares off people with background and experience?

[Micro67]

[bbq2k]

Thanks to Lexpat for sharing his perspective. It differs from mine. His very good post about the spiritual bankruptcy of many lost expats resonated with the sadder side of what I've seen all over S.E. Asia. Still, as Micro points out, your experience in any place has a lot to do with what you bring to it in terms of expectations and desires. I'm relatively new to Hanoi, so I'm still relishing the honeymoon phase, I reckon. I have found so many more expats here that I can relate and connect to than I could in most parts of Thailand. I think that my particular personality has a lot to do with this: I'm not a toss-pints-at-the-pole-dancing-pub kind of guy, more of a form-a-community-theater-group kind of guy. And the resources (human and infrastructural) here in Hanoi suit my needs better than any place I found in Thailand.

Don't get me wrong. I miss so many things about Thailand. The food was out of this world, the language was easier to learn, the general cool-heartedness of the people made day-to-day living more peaceful. I love Thailand. It seems clear, though, that there is a different kind of person who stays in Vietnam: I think it's a generally more serious person. I don't agree with the assessment made in this thread that Vietnam scares off people with strong backgrounds. Here in Hanoi, UNIS, HIS, British Council and Apollo all have dedicated teachers with excellent credentials who stay for years. I'm sure there are many others.

[greent]

After teaching in Thailand for a year and now being in hcmc for over a year, I'd have to agree that there is a pretty big difference in the teachers that each country generally attracts. I found most teachers in Thailand to be the backpacker type who were teaching to support an extended vacation, while Vietnam seems to attract more long term and qualified or wanting to be qualified teachers. Life is definately not as easy in Vietnam as in Thailand with all the comforts of home offered there, and it seems that teachers that come to Vietnam come for the lifestyle, culture, and relatively decent salaries. Personally, I felt that I could have lived in Thailand for 20 years without every having a deep thought or actually penetrating Thai culture, and I find it the complete opposite here.

[lexpat]

The market in Thailand is mature. There are many different niches, but almost all the higher paying jobs are in actual Thai schools. In fact, the best paying jobs are teaching subjects other than English language in English, e.g. mathematics, science, etc. Vietnam is still in a different phase. If you just show up in the Kingdom you wind up working for the British American, ECC, ELC, type of fly by night places. It takes awhile to realize that the money only really flows when you cut out the middleman and work directly for the many institutions that employ teachers directly. Comparing the two places without realizing that Thailand is a more mature market can be misleading.

Having said that, I will say that the casual teacher in Vietnam probably is less likely to have just run out of money and be looking for the means to move on. This, however, does not make them better teachers. Many of the best teachers I've met in Asia have been totally unqualified types (often boozy Brits surprisingly enough) with a gift for gab who give the students in this part of the world just what they need: the comfort level to speak freely in class. I think the dirty secret of this part of the world is that grammar is easy, and the local teachers do a good enough job of teaching it. Most of us foreigners walk in with our texts written for the EU and think we are enlightening them. Acually, what they need is to talk more and use the English they already know. Sometimes a CELTA can be a positive detriment. The whole thrust of the TEFL education scene is profoundly influenced by EU requirements. If you ever wonder why the DOS (Director of Studies) is unimpresed by your qualifications realize that their experience suggests it really doesnt help all that much here.

Now, what I've said above is especially true, I think, in Vietnam. The local teachers do a good job with the nuts and bolts. They don't really want that much in the way of technical expertise in teaching English. In the same way that they control where you live, they also aspire to control what you offer students. In Thailand, I could teach all sorts of stuff. Many of the students were looking for grammar and basic education in English. Here in Hanoi, I find, if you for a moment talk over their heads, if they don't understand the lesson right away, they freak. They want you for your native accent and little more. The 'direct method' is dangerous here because they are pretty egoistic. They like to understand every word, which is not what you're taught in most ESL training regimes.

But about why they pay more: Life in Thailand is sweeter. The people are much nicer, the food far superior, the amenities more in line with what people expect in the West. Also, the prices in Thailand if you get off the Sukumwit/Kao Sarn tourist trail really drop. If you live outside those districts, its actually cheaper than Vietnam.

[Ajarn Miguk]

[EricCC]

There seems bo be some discussion here that decent paying jobs exist in Thailand. Is this true?

I am a certified social studies teacher who would enjoy working in an international school some where around Bangkok. Is this a possibility for someone with the credentials but little "official" teaching experience ? I have tuaght classes for nine years in a high school program geared for students with problems in school, but my title has been "program assistant." Also, I will have a TEFL cert by the end of the year.

[OzBurn]

Interesting comments all around.

Hanoi seemed to me to be a more cultured place, during my week there, but I couldn't take the weather, which was very hot and very steamy every day (much more than Saigon, which is fairly pleasant, believe it or not), or having to wake up to the the idiotic braying of propaganda from public loudspeakers every morning around 6:00 a.m. But it seemed nicer in many ways, and there's more stuff to do in the northern part of the country, as far as nature, ethnic minority villages, ancient culture, etc.

The expats I've met here in HCMC have mostly been newbies or people with a lot of experience teaching -- not much in between. As to their actual skills, I'm curious as to how above poster assesses skills of other teachers -- do you visit their classrooms and watch them?

I've met a fair number of newbies here and some old guys who can't control their classes, which I find amazing -- if you can't control Vietnamese students, you shouldn't be a teacher.
I can't say that the students I've met have been adequately taught English grammar. The vast majority, at my school and on the street, seem able to use only one verb form (the base form), and rarely, if ever, do I hear anyone who can use participial phrases, gerunds, or relative clauses correctly, or for that matter, understand sentences of more than seven or eight words with moderate grammatical complexity. Also, Vietnamese very rarely seem able to use plurals (at all) or to use articles correctly. Sure, many students can pass a paper-and-pencil test, but that's not evidence of good grammar teaching; rather, in its obvious contrast with students' deficient speaking and listening skills, it's more the opposite: evidence of failure.

In general, I don't think that Vietnam has nearly as free or (if you prefer) licentious an atmosphere as Thailand, from what I saw of it almost ten years ago and from what I have been told recently by expats who moved on to Vietnam from there. There is a relatively strong government here, and it does search hotel rooms, and it does close clubs, and it does force people to pay lip service to it and its regulations. Some expats like this, I suppose, and it does keep things calmer. It must discourage the wilder sort of expat out to sow his or her wild oats. (Which is not to say that there is not plenty of room to do that here, compared to, say, the United States of America, aka the Land of the Free.) Also, there is limited freedom of speech in Vietnam. There is no English-language press worth reading, and people really are frightened of talking about things that the government might get wind of. I don't know how much of this fear is based on real consequences nowadays, and how much is a legacy of a much more oppressive past; but I know it's real, and I find it very unpleasant. Creepy, actually, which is the main reason I'm moving on at the end of my contract, aside from general boredom with and lack of interest in the culture as well as the anticipated finish of the book I'm writing. I'm interested in politics, and like to talk about politics, and you just can't do that here with locals.

Oh, I should say: I know that if I'm not interested in the culture, I can't very well expect this to be an interesting place. That's fair enough, but I would argue that, relatively speaking, it perhaps is not a very interesting culture unless one has mastery of the language. But that's of course quite subjective. Not interesting to me, then.

I find it hard to understand why one poster would be working for ten dollars an hour. I have not met a single other person working for that little, and the daily paper has regular advertisements for jobs. Must be a good job in other ways.

It's true that it's easy to get by here even when not working much. I work an average of three hours a day, and my classes require very little prep, since I don't teach grammar or writing, and I am required to follow the textbook. I can prep a three-hour class in 15 to 30 minutes. The rest of my time is free, and I'm saving money. The prospect of moving on to, say, a place where the pay is seven dollars and hour and each hour of class takes an hour of prep/homework-checking does not appeal to me; but there it is, one can't sit on the sofa forever.

I would also add another reason: I find the language extraordinarily difficult. I'm not linguistically gifted with foreign languages, in the sense that I can't just hang out and pick up a language; but I'm a pretty good student -- I was always at the top of the class in high school and college classes, and I think I'm one of the very few people from my high school who can still speak some French. But I find Vietnamese literally ten or twenty times harder than a Romance language, and five times harder than the non-tonal languages I've studied (e.g., Russian). What's most frustrating about it is that I can think I have mastered something, use it with one person, and find later that though I say a sentence five or six times to someone, I still can't get him to understand. (And I have studied the tones, which doesn't mean I'm great at them, because I'm not. But I have tried, and I can do it correctly according to my teacher.) I never once had this experience with a non-tonal language (I'm not counting Hungarian, which uses vowel length, and which was almost equally frustrating). Maybe my accent wasn't great, but I was always able to communicate. Not in Vietnamese.

Anyway, good luck to those who want to try it here. Suggestions:

1. Bring some earplugs and some very good headphones, to blot out the ubiquitous noise (it really is stunning how much noise there is here -- I've never heard anything like it, and I lived in NYC, and I have been to twenty foreign countries)
2. Bring a few good books -- the kind you like to read again and again
3. Buy a DVD player right away, as there aren't any movie houses to speak of
4. Study Vietnamese seriously, for hours a day, because otherwise there is no hope
5. Don't stay in Pham Ngu Lao too long
6. Don't believe what they tell you on a CELTA course.

[bbq2k]

Great comments, OzBurn (condolences on the election, BTW).

I have heard many complaints here about the weather in Hanoi, but I've only been here since July, so I can't speak with much authority. I do know that the weather in the last two months has been wonderful. Not overly rainy, cool in the mornings and evenings, and not too hot in the afternoon. I can't speak for the hot season, but I've survived a few of them in Thialand, so I know how bad it can get. Aside from the high-altitude places in the north, though, Thailand didn't have much of a cool season, such as the weather Hanoi is getting now. There is a bit of a cold season in December and January, but not much. I hear that Hanoi gets pretty cold in winter; we'll see.

I agree that the language is bafflingly hard. I've had the same experiences of mastering a phrase, only to meet blank stares. Oddly, I can pronounce it the exact same way on ten different occasions, and half of the people will get it while the other half will have no clue. This may be an indication that half of the population just has much less exposure to foreign accents than the other half. A Japanese businessman looking for a cup of ice in America is going to have a harder time getting it in some podunk town than in a big city because sophisticated folks know to make auditory allowances.

Also, the speaker propaganda is *out of HAND* and really boggles my mind. It doesn't directly bug me so much because I usually get up around 6, but the idea of it really gets on my nerves. I'm a yank, I know... but the natives hate it, too, from what I hear.

Now, a word about the food. I really miss Thai food, but I have to keep in mind that it took me over a year to really crack the code and start consistenly getting the good Thai food. I have faith that I'm going to do the same here, and my diet of pho and com will expand. Maybe I'll start a food thread to accelerate my learning.

Finally, I, too, was bewildered by lexpat's claim to be making only $10/hr. I hope he's getting some righeous perks. There are always vacancies in most language schools that pay at *least* $13, and usually $15-20, DOE.

[lexpat]

delete

[OzBurn]

That's really interesting. Here in HCMC, there are lots of weatherbeaten older guys, some of whom are here for the girls/guys, some of whom are clandestine missionaries (who knows, maybe some are a bit of both, it wouldn't be the first time); but I don't think that age has all that much to do with hiring or pay, at least not where I work.

On the other hand, people read me as much younger than I am (last two guesses were 26, LOL), so what would I know about it?

I guess I better stop telling them my real age...

Lexpat, why, oh why, do you stay?

[bbq2k]

Lexpat, I'll be candid: you sound like a bitter old man. Odd, though, because you're not that old by my account. My partner and I are both in your age neighborhood, and neither of us experience the kind of ageism you're talking about. Some advice I hope you take constructively: have you considered it might be either your crowd or your attitude? Either one can make a world of difference in how you percieve the way others treat you. I'm not trying to judge you; I don't know you at all. But I do know that being alone in Asia can be really hard for men. Women, too, but it's a different beast for men. I hope you can get out, if that's what you want.

[lexpat]

Eh? What's that you say? Dagnab this confounded contraption! Back in my day we used to put the damn note in the bottle and just it throw it in the ocean! We didn't need replies at all! Why back in my day...

Anyway, the squirrel is probably right. This Lexpat is too old for the women here and his butt doesn't fit on the little stools and the beer is too weak...or that's the way it seems. I'll leave soon. Cheers.