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How can Vietnam pay ESL teachers so much?
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Proffeshnial Teachman



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmanisok wrote:
Yes, the specifics please. Exactly what crackdown?

Thanks.


Basically, no work-permit, no teach Vietnam.

To get a work permit is

a) Extremely difficult if you're not American

or

b) Impossible if you're from the USA

You need: A degree (original in Vietnam please. Not here? SEND IT!), CELTA/TESOL etc (original here again), CV, health check, criminal record check in home country (USA State please) and Vietnam, 4 pictures, I'm sure I've missed something...........sound easy?

Oh I forgot each of these has to be verified by your Consulate in Vietnam AND translated into Vietnamese (including CV and no exceptions)

Estimated cost 500-600 USD or maybe cheaper if you know the right people. Laughing Laughing Laughing

The health check alone is 60-120 USD, all those postage costs, Consulate fees and translation costs PLUS the loss in time as you try to get it stamped by various officials......

Oh yes, I remember...........there is also a psychological test to check you're the right sort of person! Laughing Laughing Laughing
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zoubaidah



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:50 pm    Post subject: Proving your innocence Reply with quote

Hey guys - are you professional teachers in your own countries? if you are, you have accepted the police clearance requirement as part of that process.
Seems to me after several years teaching in Asia that it's even more important for these countries to make such checks when many "teachers" are employed on the qualification that they can speak English and produce a degree that they bought down Kao San or somewhere similar.
Don't descend on me in wrath - I know many of us have bona fide degrees, are trained teachers, have TESOL qualifications. but there is that other set of teachers also.
As students or parents in our home countries we can be reasonable (not entirely) confident that our teachers are qualified, and not criminals or non-convicted paedophiles etc. Do Asian countries not deserve the same quality?
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zoubaidah



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject: oops Reply with quote

reasonably
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sigmoid



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1171

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I don't disagree with you, I don't feel these Asian countries [and countries elsewhere] can dictate to us without alienating a large portion of their potential forign teachers.

If there is some doubt about an individual's qualifications or character, then don't hire that individual person. We all know that many, if not most schools in Asia have to choose from those candidates that are available. By adopting a negative attitude and collectively punishing and persecuting the few teachers that are willing to teach in a particular country, that country reduces its pool of foreign teachers. If that's the goal then VN is proving to be quite successful.

If your goal is to improve the quality of education there are more positive means to achieve this.

Also, just to let you know, you can edit your posts. Look for the edit button in the top right corner. You have to be signed in.
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Proffeshnial Teachman



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
are you professional teachers in your own countries? if you are, you have accepted the police clearance requirement as part of that process.


Yes, I understand that any given country has the right to have some info on it's teachers, whether it be criminal record or validity of qualifications. I went through a similar process in Taiwan. However I was never made to feel like a criminal for educating that country's youth. I was also given something in return in the shape of a multiple entry visa and health insurance reductions. In Vietnam all I get is a "we will allow you to work here for the moment".

However to muddy the waters still further, today I've just learned that VATC has had, and I quote: "2 teachers arrested and 20 deported" for not having a work permit that is extremely difficult to obtain in so short a time. This information is unconfirmed but has been given to me in good faith. The thought of being detained (and ultimately fined) in a country like Vietnam is, how shall I say, unappealing Shocked

There is a hanging pall of uncertainty and fear in Saigon at the moment. I don't want to be around to be detained, questioned and fined, then told to leave, never to return. Next week is the last I shall teach in Vietnam, barring some significant sea-change in the way Vietnam views it's foreign resources.
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Snaff



Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

..................

Last edited by Snaff on Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Proffeshnial Teachman



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bibel wrote:
This is getting more interesting for me, as I am due to arrive in Hanoi the first week of February. My school told me that they will arrange everything for me when I get there not to worry. I have already picked up a multiple-entry visa here in Canada ($175) ! and they say that the rest of the paper work will be no problem once I get there.

I am quite nervous about this whole situation, though. I will let keep you up to date on what happens once I arrive.


Hanoi appears to be free of the work-permit problem at present. All the heat is on Saigon thanks to the local education ministry people (known as DOET). Mad
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MrTudo



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 2
Location: Florida USA-Saigon Vietnam

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="OzBurn"]Well, now that I am out of Vietnam on vacation and looking for, possibly, work elsewhere, I find myself missing the place. Even crazy HCMC and its neverending motorbike traffic. I guess I mostly miss the nice people, their ready smiles and constant helpfulness and great sense of humor.




Thumbs up OzBurn! Very Happy
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Vietman



Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 19
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:29 am    Post subject: Time to go back to Vietnam? Reply with quote

I am currently getting scammed (paid late, paid partial, and sometimes just not paid) by my employer in South Korea and am debating whether to head back to Vietnam mid-contract.

With all the retarded crap going on in HCMC, I think I will strongly consider Hanoi or another city and hope that things go well for me there. I don't have all the required documentation to get a work permit, and from what I hear, it takes five months to get an RCMP check done internationally (and that's just for the criminal record check).

Anyone working in Hanoi, or other cities, seeing teachers getting deported for not having the nearly-impossible-to-obtain work permit?

Also, from what I understand, you now need some sort of TEFL qualification to get the work permit. Is this true?
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Micro67



Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 297
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:26 am    Post subject: Re: Time to go back to Vietnam? Reply with quote

Vietman wrote:
With all the retarded crap going on in HCMC, I think I will strongly consider Hanoi or another city and hope that things go well for me there.
It seems like there have been quite a few people heading to Hanoi -- it would be good if more people posted about what the situation is there.

Vietman wrote:
Also, from what I understand, you now need some sort of TEFL qualification to get the work permit. Is this true?
Last time I checked a B.S. degree would suffice, but I'd like to get confirmation on that.
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legaleagle



Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 59
Location: HCMC

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now what I was just told is that Hanoi is much more strict with regard to the work permit. Our school won't even hire people without the docs started, at a minimum, and it is an absolute no go for anyone on a tourist visa. This is straight out of the mouth of the Education Ministry, today. There is grief here but it might even be worse up there, from this recent report.
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N'Nuther Brick



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Answer, They Don't! Reply with quote

To get an idea of how much you can make in Vietnam let's consider a comparison to Korea:

KOREA

1) You will make an average of $2000 per month after tax.

2) You will work anywhere from 16 - 30 contact hrs/mo

3) National Health Insurance provided

4) National pension of 4.5% per anum

5) Completion bonus of 9% or one months salary

6) Housing provided

7) All national holidays paid + minimum 2 weeks paid vacation

8) Airfare provided (from North America and Europe)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Approx. Total Annual compensation + benefits = $32-34,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

VIETNAM

1) At $12 - $17 hr you will need to work around 40 hrs per week
to make $2000 US. (Watch the tax. It's 10% and you employer
may not pay it.) That's 30-60% more work. Same money.

2) No health insurance provided. Roads are dangerous.

3) No National Pension

4) No Completion Bonus

5) No housing provided (Avg. housing $300 per/mo)

6) No paid holidays or vacation (Subtract at least one month's pay here)

7) No airfare provided

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Approx. Total Annual comp. minus health/housing/holidays = $15-17,000
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Knowing both countries, that's a pretty fair comparison. Many will want to talk about travel opportunities, food, weather, cultural issues and all the other things that comprise "living" but this is a very straight financial outlook. Hope that helps.
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Tue



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

N'Nuther Brick seems to have his facts wrong.

Quote:
) At $12 - $17 hr you will need to work around 40 hrs per week
to make $2000 US. (Watch the tax. It's 10% and you employer
may not pay it.) That's 30-60% more work. Same money.


Wrong. 18$- 20$ is easily attainable for a qualified teacher and I only teach 21 hours a week. Granted you are not going to make as much as Korea, but the cost of living easily off sets this.

Quote:
2) No health insurance provided. Roads are dangerous.


Wrong. My school and other schools offer a monthly allowance for health insurance.

Quote:
3) No National Pension


True.

Quote:
4) No Completion Bonus


Wrong. My contract has a 1000$ US completion bonus. This is standard on a full time contract.

Quote:
5) No housing provided (Avg. housing $300 per/mo)



True. I have a huge 2 story apartment, with a roof top terrace that would cost over a 1000$ a month in Seoul, and I pay $290 including a maid service.

6) No paid holidays or vacation (Subtract at least one month's pay here)

Wrong. I am paid on salary p[er month, so I get paid for TET and other holidays. Even now we have 4 days off, and this will not affect my monthly salary.

7) No airfare provided

Wrong Again. Major schools, mine included pay a 550$ airfare reimbursement. This is paid during the first moth of employment with the submission of a travel ticket.

Quote:
Knowing both countries, that's a pretty fair comparison. Many will want to talk about travel opportunities, food, weather, cultural issues and all the other things that comprise "living" but this is a very straight financial outlook. Hope that helps.


Quite obviously you are not familiar with the working conditions in Vietnam. What you have stated is only true for some traveling back-packer who can only find employment at the lowest fly-by-night schools here. Anyone with basic qualifications and some experience can easily get what I have mentioned above ( also knowing how to negotiate doesn't hurt...this is Vietnam).
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N'Nuther Brick



Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:51 am    Post subject: Ooooooh Reply with quote

A little bitter are ya Tue?

Facts are never wrong, only different. Sure there are better deals around but my numbers are a good guide to any newcomer who's seriously looking.

And if you paid $1000 a month for your apartment in Seoul then that's too much. $300-$400 per month in central Seoul. Negotiation required.

Prices quoted also are not for backpacker schools. Consider the Korean school in district 7. $1500 per month, 40 hrs a week and no housing. Also no filghts and the insurance contract excludes motorbike accidents! (I thought that was funny. How else might a person get hurt in HCMC?) They do pay for holidays though. Prices also reflect the going rates offered by VUS and VATC, two of the larger chain schools in town.

So do shop around but don't expect too much. The cost of living can be greatly overated. Yes, beer and cigarrettes are cheap but beer, away from the backpacker district, and meals in good midline restaurants don't come far off the prices of Australia and New Zealand.
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Porlestone



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 95
Location: Asia

PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to have to overwhelmingly agree with Nuther Brick's post... In fact I will even say that his quote of $12 to $17 is still too high. If you're an average Joe with normal qualifications, then bank on $12 to $14. 12 to start and then work up to 14. 15 and above is for special circumstances, I teach one class a week outside the city and it pays above the norm. If you have an MA and/or great qualifications then I could see you working your way up to 15 or so. But also be realistic, not all schools are motherloads of money and can't support any salary you expect. It will have to be a middle ground. That's my realistic view. Keep in mind I only do HCMC.

But otherwise Nuther Brick was quite accurate in his economic assessment.

Tue, unfortunately I have to say that your situation does not at all seem the norm. I've even seen guys working seven days at the same school and I'm sure they are getting nothing other than an hourly salary, and definately no holiday pay. In fact I could never imagine the Vietnamese paying for holidays, etc... No health care, nothing but an hourly salary. I don't know anyone who is on a real "contract". And I certainly wouldn't want to be.

The fact that I am completely on my own to foot all bills is a source of stress. I don't mind at all paying my own rent. However any kind of auto accident and the like and the schools will certainly say "see ya."

I disagree that you will make out financially better in Vietnam than Korea. I've been in both countries for awhile each. All I can say it the savings added up better in Korea. However I would go on the disagreement with Nuther Brick if he is alluding that Korea is in anyway rosey.

There's one huge point the both of you left out: the huge chunk of a tax applied to all foreigners in Vietnam for six months and less, at the rate of 25%. And no don't expect to get it back. Would be a miracle. And knowing how this nation operates, highly unlikely.
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