Job Discussion Forums

[Nim Chimsky]

Hi Teachers

There have been a lot of questions on this forum about getting a management job in the EFL industry in Vietnam. But there has not been much discussion about this issue here. So I thought I would give you my opinion and hopefully others will add theirs to help teachers who want to climb the ladder.


The most important thing is qualifications.

One generally needs BA, CELTA or equivalent, Delta or MA in TEFL etc.

One of course needs experience teaching EFL/ESL.

One also needs experience in a supervisory position in the EFL industry,level leader,senior teacher, DOS, any kind of position where you have to manage teachers.

But there is always the catch 22 problem, got the quals bot no experience managing teachers. What do i do? Well most teachers get these positions by being promoted from within the organisation where they are teaching.
but there arent that many positions available so who do the dos etc select.
well they choose not the most competent, not the best teachers but the ones who will tow the line and not cause any problems. how do you convince them that you are that kind of person. From the minute you walk into the school, toss your values both ethical and moral out the window.
Then try to get into the so called in crowd-and of course find out who are the level leaders senior teacheers etc.

Now starts the most important aspect of climbing the ladder-kiss you know what, participate in anything you can in and out of the calssroom, school etc, never say anything negative about the school, be a cheerleader in the
teachers room, do not hang out with teachers who are not part of in crowd, try to hang out with the current supervisors outside of the school, bars, dont drink a lot of alcohol in front of them, restaurants etc, attend any and all workshops even though you know most of them are a waste of time and always lie to the workshop trainers that it was a great workshop and tell them that you now have more skills to use in the classroom. Always say how great vietnam is and the students. try to find out about the vietnamese staff, focus on the managers, and kiss their you know what. Oh dont forget to wear the fake smile all the time in and out of the school. you also should spend as much time as possible at the school, forget your life outside, always look busy and try to help other teachers with their lesson plans in front of the senior teachers etc. Also try to internalize the personalities of the current managers as your own. Also when you think that there is a teacher who just wants to do their job, is not in the in crowd, possibly a bad apple or a virus that will infect others, tell the senior teachers about this individual. Also if you see others who are trying to do the same thing that you are doing-backstab as much as poosible.

You are now ready to apply for the next senior teacher position, you know that its all been a lie, you cant sleep at night, but do you want to live in poverty your whole life- of course not-yes, you will need money to retire have a family etc.

You apply for the position and you get it-congratulations! But you are still at the bottom of the ladder, and you want to be at the top, do exactly the same thing that you did before but now you have differnt people to impress. Eventually you will get the next higher position and so on.

But a major problem will arise-its caleed the peters principle, you are now in a senior position but you have received no training in supervisory skills, leadership skills, financial training in writing budgets etc, etc.
No worries, you are at the top now and it doesn't really matter, you will eventually be dismissed because you cant do your job but as another poster stated-you can shuffle to another senior position with another school in Vietnam and that is exactly what happens.

How do I know this, its based on personal experience and observation.

Best of luck on climbing the TEFL ladder in Vietnam.

Apologise for grammar spelling mistakes etc, wrote it quickly.

Best regards

Nim Chimsky

[kurtz]

I thought the topic was a good one and could lead into an interesting discussion. Upon further reading, I can see it's full of bitterness and cynicism and I'm actually in pain after reading it.

How many years have you been here, dude? Time to go I think.

[Nim Chimsky]

Hi Kurtz

Thank you for the reply.

I apologise concerning the pain. Are you in pain because it reminded you of what you had to do to climb the ladder. Sorry about that.

I and others would appreciate it if you could give us your opinion on climbing the ladder.

I'm off to my local for some beers.

Best regards

Nim Chimsky

[ExpatLuke]

I think it's more likely that he was saying that it hurt him to see someone so jaded and embittered by their own experience in one company. I would ask you to support your ideas of what you think it takes to get to a management position, but I doubt you really have much to go by.

[1st Sgt Welsh]

Sorry double post .

[1st Sgt Welsh]

[skarper]

OP is right - if a little cynical.

I have felt like that myself sometimes. Then I looked at the job these managers do and realised I just didn't want the hassle, even for a lot more money than they actually get.

Frankly I don't know why anyone would want a senior EFL positiion in Vietnam (or many places for that matter.)

I suspect some of the people who've gone that route are just fed up with teaching full time and/or scared they will be unable to find work long term since they are mediocre or worse teachers.

Hence they take on the unpleasant taks of being the goon in charge.

[mark_in_saigon]

IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND, THE ONE EYED MAN IS KING!

I like that one, and think it is often appropriate here. If we really analyze the nature of this industry, I do not think we are going to give it exceptionally high marks. Much or most of this is a reflection of the general business landscape here, so no big surprise there, right?

So who is drawn to live and work in this environment? The best of the best? And of the good ones we do have, how motivated are they going to be to take on this kind of a mission?

With reference to being jaded or whatever and still staying, I have heard that complaint, and have a bit of a different take on it. Any intelligent person can immediately see what a mess it all is, not just ESL, but everything. Still, he can have his reasons for staying, and even still love the nation and the people. So, he may be just realistic. What would you say to the natives who are far more abused than we are, and have no choice but to stay? America, love it or leave it?

Seems to me that the main issues here are systemic, outside of our control, and that the best we can do is to try to do good work, and not let it cause a coronary. If we have the opportunity to do something special for the people, great, but don't be disappointed when we get disappointed, as that is pretty much how it all turns out in the end. ESL is a means to an end, it is not the reason for being here, or for me it is not. Your mileage may vary.

[Dekadan]

Sadly, I agree with the OP, but that kind of approach can apply to most jobs in the world. Grease the right wheels, say the right things and you'll be on the fast-track to promotion. I've seen it happen too many times to deny its existence.

That said, I do believe it's possible to go about things the proper way, get trained and be promoted. So there's two tracks that can be taken: the greasy, ***-kissing route, or the route of get experience and the proper education, let management know you want more and be promoted based on your capabilities. Discouragingly, I have not seen as much of the latter...it requires more work and talent!

The only reason I would consider EFL management in Viet Nam is so that it would be on my resume for when I leave Viet Nam. You only notice a manager there when he (or she!) is screwing up. It's a thankless job that doesn't get paid that well. But if you want good pay, you should go to the Middle East! I hear the streets are paved in gold and children flock to you in adoration!

[beetlil]

The original post sounds to me like an accurate description of the ILA internal promotion policy

[The Mad Hatter]

Maybe the OP should open a small eatery opposite Chi's Cafe.

[I'm With Stupid]

Did someone not get a job?

Anyway, interesting topic. I've mainly experienced two types of managers.

First is the older person, who doesn't necessarily have a massive amount of teaching experience, but generally has management experience from a previous career. This type of manager tends to make things run smoothly, but generally isn't as good at offering you advice or feedback on your teaching.

The second type is someone for whom management is simply a stepping stone to their true calling: teacher training. They've read all the books and can quote Scott Thornbury and Michael Lewis at length. They tend to have a lot of offer in terms of teaching advice and feedback, and are extremely passionate about the subject, but they're not necessarily good at the management and organisation side of things.

Anyway, in this day and age, one would think people would be thankful that there are still companies that are willing to promote from within. Bringing in outside managers who don't know the company or job seems to be a common complaint in every other industry nowadays.

[8balldeluxe]

He neglected to reveal that fact that they are ineffective and powerless in decision-making, except to harass teachers for not wearing ties and once one who was a former truck driver rifled through my papers looking for anything to incriminate me with. Foreign managers are not to be listened to. they drain money from teacher's salary fund and serve no purpose. I prefer Vietnamese managers any day. If someone ever offered me a manager's position here I would LOL.

[kurtz]

[Nim Chimsky]

Hi Teachers

The focus of my thread was on reputable EFL scchools etc owned and managed by foreigners not Vietnamese owned and run language schools.

Of course some teachers would prefer to be managed by A vietnamese person instead of a foreigner because they know that they will be doing the managing not the the Vietnamese. Regarding ties, well may want to drop by RMIT where the teachers dont have to wear ties.

There were some interesting and logical comments by numerous posters but the sensitive generals comments about starting your own school because there is no competition, please lead me and others in the direction of an organisations such as IDP where we can set up a system of dishonest marketing and conflicts of interest with a school such as ACET.

And since the general alluded to teachers being cats, well I agree, the fat cats sitting on the fence need the thin cats on the ground- welcome to reality.

Best regards

Nim Chimsky