Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Anti-Semitism and Russia
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Russia & C.I.S.
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
GabeKessel



Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a bit hard for Americans ( Canadians, Australians, etc) to understand how Russia works or how most Old World countries work when it comes to nationality issues. Most teachers here come from the New World where most people are children of immigrants. Hence, everyone born in the US, Canada, NZ etc. is automatically an American, Canadian or a hyphenated American/Canadian, etc.

Russia is *not* a nation of immigrants. The people are indigenous more or less. Most Russians descend from tribes that have been in the country for some 40,000 years. This mixture of Slavs, Finno-Ugric and Germanic tribes ( with a tad of Mongols) are called 'Russkie'. They have certain facial features, names, height and skin/hair, eye color that characterizes them. They are a 'race' of sorts. At least that is how they view themselves.

The population is divided into "Russkie" and "Ne-Russkie" . Most people are "Russkie" but Tartars for one, are not. They are not the same "tribe" and even though they live in Russia, they are not nationals of the country. Citizens, yes, nationals, no. Two different concepts in Russia. And Germany, Poland, Romania and other such countries for that matter.

Citizenship is just your political registry with the State. Nationality denotes your ethno-racial background which is characterized by your face, color of the eyes, color and texture of the hair, etc. It is more of a racial thing there.

You also have autoctonous ( sp) and non-autoctonous populations. "Russkie" are autoctonous- some 81%. Germans who have been in the country for some 200 years, Jews and Gypsies who have been in the country for as long as 1000 years are not members of autoctonous population and are de facto resident"foreigners" or "foreign citizens" if you follow the Russian concept of nationality. They have not been in the country for 40,000 years.

It is the opposite of the US where the immigrant population rules and the indigenous people are living on reservations.

In the US again, children of Germans would be Americans but in Russia, they would never be Russians. Even as far back as two centuries, if they never mixed with the locals and married other children of Germans they would be considered Germans officially and according to the Russian law. And Germany would take them back at any time. The same with the Jews and the Gypsies or the dark people from the Caucasus. These are obviously "ne-Russkie".

Being born in Russia does not make one Russian similarly to how being born in China or Korea or Japan does not make one Chinese, Japanese and/or Korean.

The only way one can become a Russian is by mixing one's gene pool with the local people over three generations- not just by being born there. Or you can be born in Latvia but you are still a Russian.

Birth place has nothing to do with it. One is a Russian when one's gene pool is 75% 'tribal' Russian and when one has that Slavic/Finnish/Scandinavian look and a name that ends with 'ov and 'in' .

The word 'Jew' in Russian is not used actually. They use the word "Hebrew' -Yevrey-indicating that the person is of Semitic stock, not a Slav and his ancestral motherland is in the Middle East. Jews (Hebrews) are a complete nationality there.

It is politically something similar to how the Japanese treat their Korean population.

Non-autoctonous citizens in Russia can rise in society to a certain point if they try very hard but they never seem to be able to reach any high political office and are always treated as stepsons in many ways.

Gypsies are expected to be circus workers, Germans are expected to leave the country one day- they are all potential Nazis, and Hebrews are tolerated provided they do not rise too high. If they do, they get knocked down and told to "go back to their country". Koreans will always be Koreans- there is one million of them in Russia and most were born there and can only speak Russian. They would be called Russian ( adj) Koreans ( noun) and not Korean-Russians which is an impossibility in the Russian eyes.

Germans can have their names changed but they would still be Germans.

People from Caucasus are expected to stay down there and not come to live in big capital cities of Russia by quite a few people.

Such phrases as "native-born", "native Russian" or "Russian, born and raised" are not even translatable into the Russian language. Either a person is a Russian ethnically - he looks like one and has Russian blood/gene pool or he is not. End of the story.

It is a whole different set up from the US with its government sponsored social inclusion, drive to assimilate people and hyphenization and eventual absorption of immigrants.

There is no such thing as a Chinese-Russian. Or a German-Russian unlike in the US.

Having said all the above, about 60+% of Russians do not care about what ethnic background one is provided one is a good person, reasonably friendly and pleasant-looking. It is still quite easy to make friends there and marry into local families. Most people are quite good and very sweet. So, friendliness, friendship and acceptance exist alongside with all the racism and hatred.

Go figure. That country is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
travelingirl68



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 214
Location: My Own State of Mind...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same is true of Kazakstan as well... it was probably so much easier when everyone was a member of the Soviet Union, and could then be broken down into their "nationality" groups. I have heard that Germans are not being accepted so easily back into the fold these days as there are so many economic troubles - I knew a man who had been kicked out of Germany and sent back to Kazakstan after two years.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
bobs12



Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 310
Location: Saint Petersburg

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once a foreigner, always a foreigner.

Just read a (slightly old) magazine article about emigrants returning from the US to live over here, and how Russians are sick of them complaining what a hard time they had after leaving the motherland.

They were portrayed as traitors, rats leaving a floundering ship.

You don't need to be born outside of Russia to be treated with contempt Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
zaneth



Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 545
Location: Between Russia and Germany

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobs12 wrote:


traitors, rats leaving a floundering ship.



Perhaps that describes all us Scots, Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, as well.

Someone I know recently commented that Hitler's writings contain some truth. They said that Mein Kampf is actually illegal in Russia (don't know if possession or selling is the main illegal act). Initially I offered to get a copy for them (the anti-censorship thing being a major value ingrained in me through my education) but after talking to them a bit more they started talking about the Jewish conspiracy and I decided that I will do nothing to encourage this sort of thinking. It's so strange for me when these kinds of ideas come for intelligent, educated, would hardly kill a fly kind of people.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zaneth



Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 545
Location: Between Russia and Germany

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobs12 wrote:

traitors, rats leaving a floundering ship.


Perhaps that describes all us Scots, Brits, Aussies, and Yanks, as well.

Someone I know recently commented that Hitler's writings contain some truth. They said that Mein Kampf is actually illegal in Russia (don't know if possession or selling is the main illegal act). Initially I offered to get a copy for them (the anti-censorship thing being a major value ingrained in me through my education) but after talking to them a bit more they started talking about the Jewish conspiracy and I decided that I will do nothing to encourage this sort of thinking. It's so strange for me when these kinds of ideas come for intelligent, educated, would hardly kill a fly kind of people.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GabeKessel



Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The same is true of Kazakstan as well... it was probably so much easier when everyone was a member of the Soviet Union, and could then be broken down into their "nationality" groups. I have heard that Germans are not being accepted so easily back into the fold these days as there are so many economic troubles - I knew a man who had been kicked out of Germany and sent back to Kazakstan after two years.


It was not so great after the dismantling of the German Volga Republic after Hitler's advent to power. And the Borobidzhan Hebrew Autonomous Region in the Far East did not attract too many settlers. There was no Korean Republic, either.

They could never create a Soviet nationality, I guess they simply did not want to.

Too bad that now there are so many people who are stuck in between countries and are treated as A in the country of Bs and as Bs in the country of As.

I can only feel for a Mr. Hans Mueller, a "Kazakh" who is being deported from Germany as a foreigner back to an Asian Kazakhstan.

Sounds a lot like "Born in East LA".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
travelingirl68



Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 214
Location: My Own State of Mind...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote: "They could never create a Soviet nationality, I guess they simply did not want to."

I agree, I found that people were much more conscious of nationality than I would ever have dreamed. It is a necessity to identify your nationality in your country, university, driving, etc. documents. Everywhere, people claimed "we are not racist here, America is racist", and then turn around and make so many comments, stereotypical judgements, etc. When I asked different people about that, I was told that "we all get along and work together"... Sounds like the same thing my racist cracker grandfather would say.

It seems that it was basically colonialism with its own unique Russian twist. I don't know about all the former republics, but there are 180 nationalities in Kazakstan due in part to the former gulag system. Not to mention groups like Uighurs, Dungans, etc. who have fled China... Or Koreans who were brought in on trains during WWII...

Having said those things, I don't know many Kazaks who would like to go back in time and live the full life of nomadic wandering. (Especially women!) Unfortunately, rapid change and shifting from a nomadic to an industrialized, settled society is not a pleasant process. Nor is changing from a soviet/communist system to a - well, we shall see where President Nazurbaev and family are headed!

I am curious, now that I have a feel for American and Kazakstani cultures and the mentalities about integration and the lack thereof in both places, I would like to hear from the Brits, Canucks, Aussies, etc. what their thoughts are about this in their homelands??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
GabeKessel



Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree, I found that people were much more conscious of nationality than I would ever have dreamed.


Oh, yes, but it is not the same nationalilty that you put on immigration forms when you enter a foreign country -i.e. 'citizenship'. It is a tribal, racial "nationality". It would not be recognized by the outside world as all these peoples would be just 'Kazakhstanis' if they went to the West or anywhere else.


Quote:
It is a necessity to identify your nationality in your country, university, driving, etc. documents.


This one I was not aware of. I though it went away in the 90ies as it did in Russia and Ukraine. So, you mean there is a paragraph still where one has to put his tribal ethnic nationality?



Quote:
Everywhere, people claimed "we are not racist here, America is racist", and then turn around and make so many comments, stereotypical judgements, etc. When I asked different people about that, I was told that "we all get along and work together"... Sounds like the same thing my racist cracker grandfather would say.



Oh, yes. They can be (are) far worse than what there is in the US. However, in the US, racist attitudes generally do not imply that the person is not an American, just that he is an American of a "different race". In Kazakhstan, I guess, it is clearly stated that the person is not a Kazakh.

Quote:
It seems that it was basically colonialism with its own unique Russian twist. I don't know about all the former republics, but there are 180 nationalities in Kazakstan due in part to the former gulag system. Not to mention groups like Uighurs, Dungans, etc. who have fled China... Or Koreans who were brought in on trains during WWII...


And these are not even hyphenated as say in Malaysia where you would have a Chinese- Malaysian and an Indian-Malaysian. There, they are just Koreans and Uigurs, etc.

Funny what one learns about the world when one travels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Russia & C.I.S. All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Page 4 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC