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reality



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2003 10:40 pm    Post subject: YY Reply with quote

Cool

Last edited by reality on Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"...returning to Europe (sic!)..." and not finding a well-paying Job...? Sounds fishy to me, mate!
WHich European country?
Europeans do not have the attitude that New Worlders display - travelling around the world and having others pay for your needs in their countries!
If a European quits his or her job he or she invariably faces some hardship upon returning from Asia because there is a huge gap in their CV. To claim having taught English overseas is not a selling point. European English teachers don't trek to Siberia or Afghanistan in search of work, and if they do they are adventurers that end up as journalists or handimen in a forwarding company.
European English teachers spend a lifetime teaching at the same college or university or at least working for the same education system.
There. I don't want to sound sarcastic, but there are more than one unbelievable ingredients in your story!
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12866
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 4:25 am    Post subject: Generally speaking Reply with quote

Dear Roger,
This seems, to me, strange. On one topic, you were ( with reason, I'd say ) incensed by another poster's derogatory generalization:

" I, and I am sure hundreds of others, must take umbrage at your rude and totally uncalled-for swipe at Canadians and South Africans. "

But then, on this topic, you wrote the following:

" Europeans do not have the attitude that New Worlders display - travelling around the world and having others pay for your needs in their countries! "

I wonder if any other " New Worlders " ( besides myself ) are taking umbrage.
Regards,
John
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12386
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 5:07 am    Post subject: Going Back Home Reply with quote

If by Europe you mean the UK of GB & NI, then I have had similar experiences. Even as a certificated secondary school teacher you will find problems getting back into mainstream education in the UK. Jobs teaching EFL in college are mainly given to women on a part-time basis. And the private EFL schools ? I would sooner have a real job paying minimum wage !
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnslat,
sorry if I should have offended your feelings, but the poster could have been a bit more specific as to where he came from if he wanted us to commiserate with him.
The possibility of obtaining a teaching cert from a commercial outfit that sells them to anyone who nominally enrols for one month to half a year is virtually unheard-of in Europe. Teachers there study at universities, and most of them who become teachers devote themselves to a lifetime of teaching as civil servants.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 12866
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 3:47 pm    Post subject: Am I missing something here? Reply with quote

Dear Roger,
You didn't offend my feelings - and the original poster's remarks really had nothing to do with my point. That, by the way, was - how odd it was for you to berate another poster for making a derogatory generalization, and then, the next day, for you to do the same thing. I see no difference between his remark, which you called a " . . . rude and totally uncalled-for swipe at Canadians and South Africans. " and your remark about " New Worlders ". But perhaps I'm missing something - if so, I'd be grateful if you could point out where I've erred.
Regards,
John
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M.



Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 65
Location: Moskva

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:36 pm    Post subject: Back to 1984 Reply with quote

Well,

Has anyone heard of a successful reentry into Big Brother Society after a few years teaching? Or do I have to stay in the Sprawl for the rest of my life( I enjoy the sprawl actually)?
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SueH



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Going Back Home Reply with quote

scot47 wrote:
Jobs teaching EFL in college are mainly given to women on a part-time basis.


I think this implies that there is discrimination against men but in my opinion it is just that many can't or won't take the part time work initially on offer.

But getting work shouldn't be a problem: I work in FE and at the moment as a mature career changer from IT only have the CELTA. Also I am the only person on the staff who _hasn't_ worked abroad, so I don't think that is the issue. Perhaps there is also a fear that the recruit will not stay long before disappearing off to foreign parts again.

Not sure I could afford this field though, if I hadn't already paid off the mortgage.
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Reality,
I presume you're referrng to the UK. There is a definite attitude in the UK that abroad is for fun, and in the UK people do real work, go doon t'mill and eat up all their greens You know the attitude: "Ah, so you were in Soria in Spain. How nice to escape the English winter. Could you sunbathe in December?" [you could if you kept the fur coat on!]

However there are other things to thnk of. If you have spent ten years abroad teaching TEFL in language, this will give you ten years experience in a job teaching TEFL in language schools and this is not a great career choice in the UK or US since most people don't need TEFL lessons and there is no shortage of people to teach them.

Iif you spent ten yeare teaching in intenational schools then you have ten years useful experience if you want to teach in an independetn school in the UK. If you want to teach in a State school you will come up agaisnt the semi-permeable membrane that exists between independent schools and state schools.

So, in your case, if you were a trrained teacher when you left the UK you can squeeze back in just under where you were when you left, as long as schools are in firing as opposed to firing mode.

It always amazes me that so many people think that teaching EFL abroad qualifies them for anything else than more of the same. You wouldn't expect to "walk into a good job" if you had just spent the last ten years in the Welsh mountains growing pot and counting sheep, so why did you expect to do so because you had spent the last ten years doing nothing relevant in more distant climes. What kind of "good job" did you expect to walk into?

As for your friends who are now working for less than a "good EFL salary", what were they doing before they left? Even supply teaching pays better than most overseas EFL salaries. Or did they go into EFL straight from college? The only asset a new graduate has to offer an employer is poteintial. Spend more than a year bummng around abroad and you've blown it.
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reality



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 5:55 pm    Post subject: I am in Spain, not the UK or USA Reply with quote

I guess I didnīt make it clear what area of Europe, I am based in. I live in Southern Spain. I speak fluent Spanish, and have also non-Teaching experience in Marketing and Import/Export.

A friend of mine, spent Ten years in China, before it returning to Spain. He speaks fluent Chinese/Spanish/English and Japanese. Considering over 90% of Imports in this area, are from China. He expected a need
for his skills.

He choose the wrong option of returning, as he worked as a Manager in
Shanghai for a large trading Company. But is forced to stay here, because of family reasons.

One year on, nothing. So he is working in the local slaughterhouse, when local business people struggle with the language, and cultural differences of doing business with China.

I also agree with some comments regarding attitudes of people living in the UK. But believe, living in a closed, and xenophobic Nationalistic society
has created them. Hence, they fear anyone who questions this antiquated
and ignorant attitude.
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Stephen Jones



Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2003 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Reality,
The South of Spain is Europe's unemployment capital, and you expect to find good jobs there? Your mate has done well to get a job in the local slaughterhouse. Plenty of Andalucians will envy him.

Whe are the local businessmen where you are, struggling with the difficulties of doing business with China? You know them personally and have spoken to them and they still don't want your advice and services? Or are you simply imagining their existence.

Why do you think such a large proportion of imports to where you are, are from China. Hasn't it ocurred to you that it might be because there is very little money around so people only buy the cheapest. What proportion of the importing is done through the Chinese diaspora, or through the Lebanese or Palestinian or Indian worldwide trading communities.

In Spain you are likely to be viewed as a teacher and nothing else. And anyway, why should they take you for marketing when they can get much younger Spaniards with MBA's from the States.

I know the situation because I was in it myself. I speak fluent Spanish and flient Catalan (I actually have the requisite qualification in Catalan to take a government job) but the only time I was offered a job in Catalunya was a couple of years after I left when I was living in Saudi and a guy I had helped with his computer problems wanted me to come over to Barcelona to interview for a computing job at the multinational he had just been made Managing Director of the Spanish branch of.

And another thing? Never heard of the word "enchufe"?

Hasta la vista
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A much better job for you, Reality, might be to help a Spanish exporter break into the Chinese mainland market! I am sure you could find a decent job doing just this - this way you would be really helping your country!
Don't say this is impossible. It is difficult, yes. But the Germans have proved to the world at large that it is fewasible - VW, Siemens, BOSCH are all doing fine in China.
Miguel Torres' wines are well-known in China now, thanks to the perseverance of Senor Torres himself who is a fluent Japanese speaker.
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reality



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2003 8:23 pm    Post subject: Encufe and Spain Reply with quote

I agree with some of the readers comments. I also agree that parts of Spain can be very poor, and have high unemployment.

The area I live in is a wealthly part of Spain. House prices are higher than in better areas of Madrid, and most Spanish families have more than one Car. Foreign investment to this area is very high, many foreigners chose to live or invest in property here. Over 10 Million Tourists visit the area every year.

No Country is poor nor rich. There are wealthly areas in every Country, and poor areas in developed Countries. I heard of Teachers earning over $20 ph in Cambodia, so why not Spain?.

The majority of Spanish here, donīt have a knowledge of English. Yet, the majority of jobs here are with the booming Tourist Trade. So, I am mystified to why, language schools are closing down here, and demand for Teachers is declining. Given the fact, I found Cambodians and Lao people better conversed in English.

In my experience, Foreigners are at the best Second class citizens, at the worst Immigrants to be taken advantage off. Looking at the local Job advertisements, Romanians are prefered over other EU Citizens, especially the women. There are more advertisements for European women to work in the brothels than in restaurants.

Local businesses deal with foreigners, often over big property deals. Yet, they prefer to hire locals with no foreign experience, over foreigners with
more experience. Locals earn more, even if you speak the local language well.

I know the answer to Why I canīt get adequate employment in my area. But I post this topic as a warning to anyone, leaving a good Teaching job, to return "home", and discover that it was a costly mistake.
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MartinK



Joined: 01 Mar 2003
Posts: 344

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:03 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

...

Last edited by MartinK on Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 12386
Location: Ultima Thule

PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:03 am    Post subject: going back to Blair's Britain Reply with quote

I have had colleagues who worked in education other than ESL who also faced problems when returning to the "Sceptred Isle". Teachers of Science and Maths, supposedly much in demand, they had worked outside the UK on British Council and ODA schemes. That is the jobs were through official UK governement channels. On return they were offered nothing at all by many local authorities or jobs at the bottom of the ladder by other.

The western world has ben overproducing graduates and teachers, but no one seems to have noticed - except the unemployed graduates !

In Blair's benighted post-colonial Britain, there is definite suspicion of those returning from that mysterious place, Abroad. And yet refugees are welcomed with open arms. (Well, hardly !)

My advice to the younger generation - get a trade. Become a plumber or carpenter. Forget about tertiary education.


Last edited by scot47 on Tue Apr 29, 2003 11:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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