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Pay In China??
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2 up Lee



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Claim: South America; Reality: China

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you save money on that? Yes, Chinese money. Crying or Very sad

Roger and Millie are certainly both correct as regards the arrogance displayed by many who replied, though many others are correct that 3,500 RMB is low. Confused

Mind you, 3,500a week still works out to be 14,000 a month, which is what you need as a bare minimum in a city in China nowadays. Cool
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burnsie



Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 489
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peggiescott wrote:
Burnsie said:
Quote:
It's policy that governmental institutions offer a pay of 3,500RMB a month to foreign teachers. That is a fact. You will never get a higher wage until this policy changes.

Schools are not allowed to offer higher wages.


This is not true at the government school where I teach or most of the schools offered by the recruiter I came through. They offer 4000 a month.

Peggie


That's from the Foreign Experts Bureau Law or policy in Beijing but schools are able to offer higher salaries but most don't.


Last edited by burnsie on Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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burnsie



Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 489
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ContemporaryDog wrote:
Was that your first ever teaching job though? I think 4-5000 is OK for a first job. After a year or so people really should aim higher though.


Yes, pretty much it was my first teaching job. I did 2 months of english teaching at 4,000RMB a month to prove my abilities (well so called abilities Shocked Shocked ) then moved to business teaching as I have 10 years experience in marketing from previous jobs.

But the workload is high and no time during the week to do much at all. Start around 9am and go through to 8.30pm with a few hours inbetween for prep work.
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Yu



Joined: 06 Mar 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a bit offended that some posters have the arrogance to assume that just because a person accepts 3500 as a salary, they are ignorant and accused of bringing the salary down for the rest of the teachers.

Most of the people agreeing to work for 3500 I would assume are working for public schools or colleges. Where I am teaching, there is one teacher who makes 6000 PMB per month, some make 3800 RMB; but everyone who is in their first year is making 3500 like me. We also get 2000 for a housing allowance and 400 a month for utilities. We get 4500 towards our return airfare (but it looks like we don't get it unless we actually go somewhere; while I think this sucks, I was aware it might be the case before I signed the contract.)

I did quite a bit of research before taking this job; indeed, I was offered jobs that paid much higher. But I wanted to work for the school I am teaching at. I have been quite happy there. My workload has not had any surprises. I wanted to have university expereince that would translate to meaningful work expereince when I returned back to the states. I am getting the chance to develop my own class and choose my own textbooks as well as set my own grading standards for the next sememster. I am very excited about teaching a class that I want to teach. I have been teaching 3 section of sophomore English, and since it is the same class, I only have one prep.

To those arrogant posters, don't assume people willing to work for 3500 RMB per month are ignorant or not doing their homework. If I calculate a annual salary, I think I will be making more in USD in China than I was making in America. In America, I could barely live over the poverty line and teach English. Here my standard of living has definately increased. Also, in America I was never paid during the breaks, I was not guarenteed to make certain wage. My work depended on student enrollments, not enough students, no job. I would find out about a week in advance. This was not really a way to live. I came to China to get some more expereince so that when I returned home, I would hopefully be able to get a better job. Coming to China is a good way to get expereince. At least I hope it works out that way.

Even in Shanghai 5900 (salary+benefits) is probably enough for an individual to live fairly comfortably in China. I am with family, so I am not exactly sure how much is needed for an individual.
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ShapeSphere



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 386

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LORD LOVE A DUCK! What's going on here!?

You're offended? I am offended and absolutely livid the way some teachers are allowing themselves to be exploited to the inevitable detriment of REAL teachers. It affects my career. Note that last word - CAREER.

Have people ever heard of the 'going rate', did anybody note my past post about 'Supply & Demand', does anybody understand about their 'market value'?

(C-Dog & Old Dog are clued up).

All I ask is to be paid a reasonable salary for my services. I don't want to be a millionaire. Just to feel valued & appreciated in my job. I would work a lot better if I felt the boss cared for my well being as well. Wouldn't you agree?

Give me ambition over complacency any day. Please wake up and look around you. I agree that money is not the key to happiness, but I've never been in a situation where having money made it worse.

1. Look at your school. Work out how much students pay for a term/season/whatever and then multiply by the amount of them.

2. Think of your salary and your cut of the pie.

3. Where is the money going? If the school are buying new books, materials (flash cards, maps, videos, posters, etc.) then that's a positive sign the money is being reinvested. Look at the classrooms. Are they being refurbished? Or are they shoddy and rundown?

4. Do you get great perks? Think about accommodation, health insurance, pension schemes, bonuses, holidays. If you get a lot, then lucky you and add to your salary. If not, then where do you think the money is going?

5. Are you getting training? I mean proper training, as in external venues, possibly with certificates at the end. Not some fortnightly meeting where you share games garnered from this website. Is the school reinvesting the money in your education? If the teachers learn and are encouraged to learn, they in turn become better teachers.

If you believe having a strong opinion is overly bumptious, then I feel sorry for your lack of passion or beliefs. Where is your driving force in life?

And what's with the overuse of the word 'arrogance'? Worryingly sheep like in my opinion. People pick up on a word and just keep following. Baa. Baa. OOPS! An opinion.
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Talkdoc



Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The teaching salaries in China are depressed because English teaching is not professionalized here. And I believe it’s not professionalized because, like most things in China, English “teachers” are here to provide face, not real substance – “we” are here for show and tell. Let’s be open and honest about this; if China was really interested in having their students learn how to communicate in English, the English levels of our students would be considerably better than they currently are. We are talking about students here who have had upwards of 10 years of English classes (including university) who can barely understand and communicate in basic English. Hell, after only two years of high school Spanish, I could communicate better in that language than most English majors can communicate in English at my current university. What does that tell you? The truth of the matter is (and this has been said before by some) the government knows that most of their citizens will never need to communicate with any other foreigner other than their laowai English teacher – it’s “good enough” if they can just read and write e-mail in Chinglish. The few who can communicate well enough to be understood are the ones who are aspiring to study or work abroad or who are seeking foreign spouses. Can I tell you how many women have contacted me on the Internet in hopes that I will be their private English teacher? In fact, the ones who really want to learn English are frustrated with what they have received. What possible point is there to having a Chinese national, who pronounces English words the way I pronounce Chinese words, teach oral English? I guess that might be useful if they only had to listen to and speak English with other Chinese nationals who mutilated the language in the same manner. Of course, in that particular case, all they really need to do is simply speak Chinese to each other in order to communicate. And that is exactly what they do, which is one of the many reasons that they can't speak more than 20 words of English to a native speaker, let alone understand him.

If China was serious about teaching English to their secondary and post-secondary students, they would hire real English teachers for that job (and I am excluding myself from this category) and Chinese nationals would be removed from that job function entirely (other than as assistants and initial interpreters). They would hire English teachers with master’s degrees, teaching certifications and related job experience and they would pay them a decent, competitive salary. Yes, if you are a high school or recent college graduate with a TEFL certificate, then 3500 RMB a month with free accommodations, utilities and return air fare is a nice deal – it’s a great way to travel and to see the world in exchange for a few hours of oral English exercises. The salary is reasonable because the teachers are not real (which is to say, they would not be able to work as teachers in their own countries); they’re being hired to provide face and to build business by their sheer presence; what they actually do is immaterial (because, afterall, the Chinese teachers, i.e., the real teachers, are responsible for the substance) just as long as the paying customers are happy. Do you think the parents know that their children’s English teacher would not be employable back home as an English teacher? That fact is one of China’s best kept domestic national secrets.

As to the argument that English "teachers" should be paid considerably more at private language schools because of the income they are generating for their employers; although it sounds reasonable at first blush, I think it is a specious one. If, as an employer, I can make, hypothetically speaking, 100,000 dollars off the work product of each of my employees by paying them 30,000, are they entitled to more money? If I own a pharmaceutical company and pay my PhDs in chemistry 75 to 93,000 dollars a year, for 10 years, to invent a new drug that I then make 1.2 billion dollars from (after expenses), over the next 17 years, should they feel cheated? If not, I don't see the difference when discussing the salaries of those who, in particular, could not secure similar work back home, at any salary.

For argument sake, let’s assume China officials became really serious about teaching English so that their students could actually use it someday. Let’s say they decided to truly professionalize English teaching in China. What impact would that have on the schools and on the industry?

For one thing, salaries would have to go up, way up. So let’s say, for a certified foreign language teacher with a master’s degree in a related field and with a minimum of two-years, post graduate experience - the salary would have to be, what, 10,000 RMB per month for 12 – 14 periods per week (maybe more)? I’m not sure what impact that would have on public schools, but I know what impact that would have on private schools – many of them would close and the profit margins of those that were able to remain open would be reduced substantially. The demand would eventually begin to level off to meet the supply. There would be fewer available teachers but there would be fewer schools. I wonder if that would have a significant impact on their economy? And, if it would, that might be one reason why English teaching will never be truly professionalized in China, as it is in other countries.

For those of us, with real credentials, who chose to roam into this free-for-all, it is obviously unrealistic to expect a fair wage based on those credentials because, quite frankly, (as I now realize) the demand simply isn’t there for us. The undereducated and minimally educated and qualified (by China’s standards) TEFLers meet the need as they define it. And if we didn't know that coming in; we sure as hell know it now.

I earn 5,500 RMB per month (with bonuses I just learned about) at a public university in the south of China; I pay for my own utilities and receive an additional 14,500 RMB per year for travel (and air fare) in exchange for 12 hours of teaching per week. The last time I earned that kind of money, I was working part-time in a bookstore while attending college, some 30 years ago. My employer and students are being rewarded with a seasoned university professor who is providing them with classes about a variety of topics, ranging from Western culture to psychology, sociology, statistics and just about anything else I feel like talking about, when prompted and stimulated by a line or even a word out of their readings. For the first time in my life, I have true academic freedom and don’t have to do battle with tenured, mentally-ill feminists. I work from 7:40 am until 11:30 am (with a 30 minute break at 9:20), four days a week and have about two and half months off per year. At the age of 49 (soon to be 50), my current accrued and future pension monies from the states will last me until the age of 167 here, even if I get sick (in stark contrast to the age of only 82 back home, assuming I don't get sick, at the same level of spending, accounting for inflation, I was accustomed to). I have time to work on my novel, go for two-hour massages (real Thai ones - the best in my life) in the afternoon (for $4.80 US), and eat at 5-star hotels for a whopping $5.74 US. I go to the beach for a few hours every week and eat corn-on-the-cob, fried shrimp and down it with a couple of beers.

Am I being underutilized? Sure I am. Am I bored sometimes? Sure I am. Is the university getting one hell of a deal with me at 5,500 RMB per month? I think they are. But, to quote the Chinese, “it’s enough!” I actually don’t manage to spend the entire salary unless I buy something big for the apartment. But I chose to come here in order to retire early and, in that respect, I am getting what I bargained for. I chose to come here and semi-retire rather than continue to work 50 hours per week dealing with ambulatory schizophrenic and psychotically depressed, drug and alcohol addicted, patients, not to mention staff and faculty, in order to carry a $1600 per month mortgage, as well as the other amenities in my life. Could I go back home and do that again? Sure I could. I could move back into my big empty house (I guess I could get another dog) and go back to work at any one of several psych hospitals, at any time, pulling close to a six-figure income, being on call 24-hours, 7 days per week, three weeks out of the month, with two weeks paid vacation per year. My blood pressure would go back up 20 points, especially if I moved within traveling distance of my ex-wives; who will be calling me and visiting me every time they need something (not to mention having to listen to their incessant and unyielding complaints about how each divorce was entirely my fault). I’ll spend most of my time thinking about my patients again, especially the suicidal ones. And I'll probably be dead by the time I am sixty-two, just like both of my parents were. My biggest worries now are deciding which restaurants to eat at, avoiding potential accidents while riding my bicycle and wondering to myself if it's time yet for another run to the DVD store.

I may stay, I may leave, I may go to another Asian country. But no matter what, I am pretty much getting what I bargained for - even if the truth of the matter is, I am really being underpaid and underutilized.

Doc


Last edited by Talkdoc on Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:46 pm; edited 8 times in total
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millie



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 413
Location: HK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShapeSphere wrote
Quote:
I am offended and absolutely livid the way some teachers are allowing themselves to be exploited to the inevitable detriment of REAL teachers. It affects my career. Note that last word - CAREER.


It seems rather obvious to me that if you are unable to demonstrate that you are a career teacher and market yourself to employers in this way, then you only have yourself to blame.

Quote:
Where is your driving force in life?


Indeed you should ask that Exclamation



I certainly don’t feel any competition or threat from those out for the adventure and/or experience and in fact I wish them the best of luck.

I think we fulfil quite different roles here and as I said previously, everyone needs to start some somewhere.


As well, I can’t agree with all of TalkDoc’s generalised view.
{He, of course, is in rather fortunate circumstances where the dollar$ is quite secondary to other concerns; lucky doc!.
That situation points to a reality for a lot of people: that $money$ is not the most important consideration for being in China. I
would guess for most qualified people they would earn and save more with quite likely a better standard of living in other nearby countries.}

Nonetheless, there certainly are a few programmes that recognise some of the shortcomings and attempt to redress some of the problems. However, it also appears to be a minority of situations and of course the educational deficiencies are systemic too.
That reform will take a . .. l o n g ... l o n g ... time Confused


M


Last edited by millie on Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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ContemporaryDog



Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 1477
Location: Wuhan, China

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 up Lee wrote:


Mind you, 3,500a week still works out to be 14,000 a month, which is what you need as a bare minimum in a city in China nowadays. Cool


I'm sorry, but I think this is utter nonsense. It is possibly the case in Shanghai, Beijing, GZ and maybe one or two other places, but in most cities, 14,000 a month will be substantially more than a 'bare minimum.
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ContemporaryDog



Joined: 21 May 2003
Posts: 1477
Location: Wuhan, China

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yu wrote:

To those arrogant posters, don't assume people willing to work for 3500 RMB per month are ignorant or not doing their homework. If I calculate a annual salary, I think I will be making more in USD in China than I was making in America. In America, I could barely live over the poverty line and teach English. Here my standard of living has definately increased. Also, in America I was never paid during the breaks, I was not guarenteed to make certain wage. My work depended on student enrollments, not enough students, no job. I would find out about a week in advance. This was not really a way to live. I came to China to get some more expereince so that when I returned home, I would hopefully be able to get a better job. Coming to China is a good way to get expereince. At least I hope it works out that way.


I think one needs to take into account the fact that in these jobs, there is no worry about rent, bills and other things which add up to colossal amounts back home. Certainly thinking of London, and assuming I had Qualified Teacher Status (i.e. enough to go to a certain other city and sit around going on about the grim mainland), I would begin on 20,000 sterling a year, which works out to about 1300 quid a month. When you take out the cost of rent plus the bills which we don't have to pay for in China, you'd be left with about 700 quid a month (i.e. about 10,000 yuan). Considering that most things cost about 10 x less in china (the main exception being western goods) it doesn't take a genius to work out that even on 5000-6000 or so we are pretty comfortably off, outside of places like Shanghai where it does appear to be a lot more expensive.

Of course, if you want to eat western food every day, drink coffee, etc then you will need to be on a much higher salary.

But why come to China if you just want to eat western food?
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2 up Lee



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Claim: South America; Reality: China

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ContemporaryDog wrote:
I'm sorry, but I think this is utter nonsense. It is possibly the case in Shanghai, Beijing, GZ and maybe one or two other places, but in most cities, 14,000 a month will be substantially more than a 'bare minimum.

I'm sorry, but the above is utter nonsense. Shocked

Personally speaking at least, I came to China to teach English, not live like a Chinese. Laughing

A cup of coffee at Starbucks costs me 45 Yuan. So, one in the morning, one at lunchtime and one at night costs me 135 Yuan a day. That is around 4,000 Yuan a month - just for decent coffee. I don't see why I should go without, after all, all the Chinese here seem to be partaking (after parking their BMWs outside). Cool

And to think there are people willing to work for less than I spend on coffee! Rolling Eyes

Then I have rent, that is 2,500 RMB a month (four floor townhouse with balcony and roof-top patio), laundry at 1,000 a month, my maid costs 750 a month, my supermarket shopping costs around 3,500 a month, my bill for dining out comes to around 4,000 a month. Then there is insurance, savings, the pension, clothes, taxi fares, etc..

No, you are talking nonsense. To be frank, I struggle on 14,000 a month. Besides, my boss who does sweet FA all day expect for smoke and talk loudly drives a 450,000 RMB Merc! Sad
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Old Dog



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 564
Location: China

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: The passion Reply with quote

I love the passion with which this question of money is approached. But we talk as if there are certain constants in the equation. I suggest that the following are not constants:

a. The employer and the kind of ft the employer wants - thoroughbred or pit pony.
b. The "ft" him/herself.

Some employers, maybe not as many as some of us would like, but there are some who want a trained professional who knows what he's/she's doing, who understands language, who is proficient in the skills of teaching, who is able to come to grips with the Chinese system, who is able to maintain discipline in the classroom to the extent that real learning takes place and who is able to project him/herself in such a way as to elicit enthusiasm among both students and staff.

Other employers just want a foreign face for PR purposes and don't care much about the rest.

And, I guess, there must be those in between.

Hence, it is clear that the "employer" is a variable - without throwing in the questions of private/public, primary/secondary/tertiary, rich province/poor province.

Then we come to the "teachers" themselves. Some bring academic credentials to bear that attest to proficiency in their knowledge of the basics of language knowledge and teaching. They bring evidence of professional training as teachers. They bring evidence of long experience in the field, of the high regard of their homeland colleagues. They are able to demonstrate upon arrival they they can conduct classes which are delightful for all concerned and in which the teacher performs as the supreme puppet master who can be confident that what is planned is actually performed.

At the other end of the scale, there are the likes of certain posters here who shall be nameless, illiterate and probably unemployable in their home countries who, for the sake of the "Chinese experience", the "foreign travels" bit or "the escape", are happy to pose for whatever period as "foreign expert" teachers.

I'm sure a mathematician could easily devise an equation that takes these variables into account to determine an appropriate wage level for a particular employee in a particular environment. But no mathematician has done so and so here we are getting passionate about such a mixed bag of variables that our passion is wasted on nonsense.

It seems to me that the answer to the question of pay is reasonably simple - if only in theory:

a. Know where you stand on the scale of teacher variables.
b. Get a nose for where the employer stands on the scale of employer variables.

Combine the two and go for it.

I think what you would find, if we were to plot these variables, would be a straight line rising at an angle of 45 degrees - zero skills and qualifications matched with zero expectation rising to high skill/high expectation.

So what are the most important elements in all this? First, self-knowledge. Then, it's that big western nose that can sense what an employer really wants to employ given the opportunity and what the employer is capable of paying.

And what do I look for? Well, I know what I'm theoretically worth and if I can find an employer who is willing to buy what I can offer (even if he doesn't end by making full use of me), then we'll make sweet music together. If what I have to offer is what the employer really wants, he/she'll pay - though I doubt that there are too many of these abroad. My current school continues to employ me because, for the moment, anyway, they prefer a thoroughbred to one of the rag and bone men's ponies that are available. But I foresee the time when personnel changes at the top here could bring a preference for that very pony - and that thoroughbred may well have to find a place for himself among the old hacks in the knacker's yard.

All that being said, while I do very nicely in my present job, I'd be quite happy to work for half the wage in an enlightened school that really wants what I can offer but that simply hasn't got the wherewithall to pay the big bucks that are possible in the rich provinces. Money, after all, is not all that important to me - but I do draw the line at being a charity worker for millionaires.

In the midst of the passion, we shouldn't get above ourselves. We need to understand our places in the great chain of being - or in the supply/demand chain as has been very sensibly suggested.


Last edited by Old Dog on Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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burnsie



Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 489
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 up Lee wrote:
A cup of coffee at Starbucks costs me 45 Yuan. So, one in the morning, one at lunchtime and one at night costs me 135 Yuan a day. That is around 4,000 Yuan a month - just for decent coffee. (


Man, what do you get for 45 Kwai a bucket size!

I buy 4-5 kgs of ground coffee from overseas and ship it in every 6 months and it costs me around 900 Yuan! I have around 2 cups a day through my little expresso machine. Alot better than the crap that Starbucks dish out but I must admitt there is not much choice for coffee in China so it's the best there is.

Oh, I am not sure about your maths. It seems you are spending more than you earn.
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2 up Lee



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Claim: South America; Reality: China

PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do spend more than I earn! Confused

I have been plowing through the savings I brought over for 'emergencies'. Crying or Very sad

Mind you, the privates help a bit. Cool
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ShapeSphere



Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 386

PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millie wrote:

Quote:
It seems rather obvious to me that if you are unable to demonstrate that you are a career teacher and market yourself to employers in this way, then you only have yourself to blame.


WOW.

Brilliant reasoning. Regards the first point, then maybe you are right, but - and stay with me here, because it gets really complicated - maybe you are wrong. If my CV (resume) demonstrates qualifications, further training & international experience then possibly an employer could see the potential. In China its quantity over quality, and as has been discussed many times on this site before, we are just a white face. Do you really think a Chinese manager would recognise quality or a career teacher? No need, when they have a cheaper versions appearing at a regular rate.

Quote:
Quote:
Where is your driving force in life?


Indeed you should ask that


Double WOW.

Indeed I did ASK. But if you mean I should ANSWER that. Then I have in my previous posts. Keywords such as:

Career. Ambition. I don't want to be a millionaire. Just to feel valued & appreciated in my job. I would work a lot better if I felt the boss cared for my well being as well.

TalkDoc makes some good points. And some not so good points.

Quote:
As to the argument that English "teachers" should be paid considerably more at private language schools because of the income they are generating for their employers; although it sounds reasonable at first blush, I think it is a specious one.


I think in any business, in any field, if you are making money, then the usual routine is for it to trickle down to employees or in reinvestment.

(I note that nobody has answered this point of reinvestment in materials, training, refurbishment in my previous post).

This is how the business is continued in a successful manner. Keep the employee happy and they will make the customer happy. If you're happy to see the money line the pocket of your boss, then so be it. But I think in a different way. I just ask to be appreciated and to see the students appreciated. But I ask way too much. It will never happen in China.

Quote:
the demand simply isn’t there for us


So why are the job sites littered with teaching positions? Look at That's Beijing/Shanghai, etc. Why do schools keep ringing me every month? Why do less reputable schools scour Western-haunted bars in search of teachers?

The demand is there, and it's growing. China's economy is growing, and the opportunities exist.


Last edited by ShapeSphere on Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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millie



Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 413
Location: HK

PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShapeSphere wrote
Quote:
Just to feel valued & appreciated in my job
…Do you really think a Chinese manager would recognise quality or a career teacher?
… But I ask way too much. It will never happen in China.



Logic would tell you it’s time to pack your bags and head for the airport then, eh?


I really don’t think you can hope that the situation here will accord with your hopes and expectations- it is as you find it.
We all agree that this is a lamentable situation -but so it goes……
M


Last edited by millie on Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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