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The Chinese Protests
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mandrake



Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard absolutely nothing talked of by the students, teachers, and my friends about this. Instead, enjoying the cherry blossoms and creating a happy and harmonious start to the new academic year seems to be the order of the day.

I saw on the news some kids throwing stones at the Japanese embassy and how some windows were broken. Saw some chinese guards (?) telling the boys to stop but not actually physically restraining anyone on the broadcast.

Now that was interesting to see. It made me think that Japan and China are not so disimilar in some respects.
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Japanese feel they are in the right, as do the Chinese...

...Japan has many agricultural estates in China and from the opinions of most the Japanese business men I talk to, they are willing to close those if need be becuz in the minds of these business men, the Japanese are helping out the Chinese by providing jobs...

...mind you this is also coming from the same mouths that tell me repeatedly that Japan was unifying Asia, for the better of all the ppl, not invading anyone at all!


Rolling Eyes
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guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Making Japan the victim as usual.



I'm not talking about Japan being the victim, I'm talking about Japan taking advantage of it's strength.

This isn't about history textbooks. It's about a group of islands with natural gas reserves. China has a tendency to claim everything that has ever fallen into it borders at any point in its three thousand year history. After these islands and Taiwan it will be Korea and Southeast Asia. It's going to want Mongolia eventually.

An embassy or consulate is foreign soil inside the host country. For a government to attack or encourage attacks on an embassy by the general populace is an act of war. If China wishes to play a game of brinkmanship then Japan ought to play along as well.
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest of Japan wrote:
Quote:
Making Japan the victim as usual.



If China wishes to play a game of brinkmanship then Japan ought to play along as well.


I wouldn’t encourage Japan to test China in any way what-so-ever… that would be dangerous.
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Nagoyaguy



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the textbooks;

You have to remember that these books are meant for JHS kids- 12 to 15 years old. They arent mature enough to handle the full dose of reality that History represents. Of course their books sugar coat stuff and try to make Japan look good! I wouldnt expect anything but.

Regarding war guilt;

Successive Japanese leaders have apologized to China numerous times in the past 20 years, from Moriyama (sp) to Koizumi. In addition, Japan has paid billions to China in ODA. To me, there is irony in a country that has a space program and nuclear weapons, that still gets ODA from others.

Also, all Chinese claims to war compensation were settled in 1972, when Japan and China re-started formal diplomatic relations. As part of the agreement, China agreed that all claims for compensation were to be dropped forever.

Face it, red China is a toilet. A brutal repressive regime run by murderous kleptocrats which supports forced abortion, infanticide, death camps, ethnic cleansing, and threatening neighbouring nations with nuclear destruction. I feel sorry for the hundreds of millions living under the yoke of oppression there.
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joncharles



Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 132
Location: Beijing

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:59 pm    Post subject: Japanese student reaction to China protests Reply with quote

I find that Japanese students know very little about the world. They are too busy trying to pass that next test that can get them into that "good" junior high school or high school or university. When they come home they spend their time with earphones on listening to their favorite J-Pop artist.

I have only heard a university student comment about the text books. She isn't a usual student in that she has done homestays in America and England. She thought that the texts should not be used and that history books should be more truthful. That was before the recent events.
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wouldn’t encourage Japan to test China in any way what-so-ever… that would be dangerous.


I agree with guest of Japan. The Chinese were way out of line. The descriptions of smashing windows and beating up Japanese students is like a page out some nasty history book (kristallnacht or something). The Japanese gov`t is more than entitled to put its foot down. If the Chinese have a problem they need to settle it like a civilized country. Smashing and burning things is comletely unworthy of anyone`s respect and isn`t going to solve anything. Not that I believe it`s really about the books anyway (although for the record, Japan should amend that).
As for "Japan testing China" being dangerous, I`ll agree, but it`ll be a lot more dangerous if China is allowed to intimitate everyone into towing the line. China is an aggressive, hard-line country, but it`s not a super-power yet. Japan still holds a lot of sway and if it acts now and flexes it`s muscles, all the better... Personally if I have to choose sides, I`ll support Japan over China anyday (at least until the Chinese gov`t changes it`s ways). Simply put, I fear a strong China, but not a strong Japan.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guest of Japan

Quote:
If I were a high powered Japanese government official (and problably it's lucky for Japan I'm not) I'd propose a full scale trade ban on China. The Chinese government would quickly change tack.

It's damn lucky your are not a high powered Japanese Government offical.
Not supplying oil was one of the excuses Japan used to enter the second world war. A trade ban could cause the same problem. Understand that maybe the international trade is the only thing stopping China from having a go at Japan.
Do you really want to give China any excuse to take revenge on Japan. It seems the majority of Chinese would be happy to see this happen.
It's to close to the second world war for many countries to put their hand up and say we are going to help Japan. I really could not see a country like America offering any support except moral support in this situation.
They already had their war in Asia.
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Lister100



Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Just an opinion)

Could China even win a war against Japan without a fleet to match them? I remember a news report a while back after Japan or Taiwan chased a Chinese sub out of their waters. It said Japan was the second biggest naval power in the Pacific after the US. I'm not sure how this assessment was made, but that's a pretty huge factor when fighting an island nation.

I'm not sure what China's airforce looks like but it probably is mainly built on old soviet fighters with a handful of newer suckoids or something. A nuke would bring the Americans in faster than shyite through a goose and the rest of the world to boot. China should wake up and smell the roses, they have nothing to gain from this posturing. It would be sad for them to wind up on the short end of the stick in yet another international humiliation.

Oh yeah, I'm not taking sides either. There should be answering for the glossing over of war crimes in text books, which are still living memories to its victims. Yet, throwing rocks at embassies while the police watch is pretty sick. If that isn't condoning prejudicial behaviour I don't know what is.
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Mark



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although Japanese people often seem terribly afraid of everything, I suspect that there's quite a bit of backbone being held in reserve. I think it would be unwise for China to push Japan too far.

However, in all serious, it's a little ludicrous to talk of war between China and Japan. If China ever attacked Japan, it would become an instant international pariah state. It's hard to see how any Chinese leader could think that was a good idea. Then again, dumber things have happened.

I think that what people in China and S. Korea really want is for Japanese people to be aware of what the Imperial Army did and to feel bad about it.

I've met so many people who have no idea whatsoever that Korea used to be a Japanese colony or that Japan invaded China. It's easy to understand how this might upset Koreans and Chinese.

The other side of it is older people who are still angry at Koreans and Chinese because of the war. It's never been explained to me exactly why some older folks feel this way, but more than a few Japanese folks have told me their grandparents don't like Koreans because of the war. It's hard to understand what would have caused them to feel this way. Perhaps they're upset that Koreans and Chinese didn't cooperate.
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
However, in all serious, it's a little ludicrous to talk of war between China and Japan. If China ever attacked Japan, it would become an instant international pariah state. It's hard to see how any Chinese leader could think that was a good idea. Then again, dumber things have happened.


I wouldnt be surprised in the least if North Korea aided China in doing so, let alone most other countries with hatred in Asia for Japan...

...go figure how well Japan would fair with two of the largest armies in the world at their doorsteps stagging an all out war...

Lister100 wrote:
(Just an opinion)

Could China even win a war against Japan without a fleet to match them? I remember a news report a while back after Japan or Taiwan chased a Chinese sub out of their waters. It said Japan was the second biggest naval power in the Pacific after the US. I'm not sure how this assessment was made, but that's a pretty huge factor when fighting an island nation.

I'm not sure what China's airforce looks like but it probably is mainly built on old soviet fighters with a handful of newer suckoids or something. A nuke would bring the Americans in faster than shyite through a goose and the rest of the world to boot. China should wake up and smell the roses, they have nothing to gain from this posturing. It would be sad for them to wind up on the short end of the stick in yet another international humiliation.


I think the main question here should be who could defeat China if they decide to go for an all out arms race and send maybe half of their nearly two million troups onto Japans doorsteps.
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wouldnt be surprised in the least if North Korea aided China in doing so, let alone most other countries with hatred in Asia for Japan...

...go figure how well Japan would fair with two of the largest armies in the world at their doorsteps stagging an all out war...

I think the main question here should be who could defeat China if they decide to go for an all out arms race and send maybe half of their nearly two million troups onto Japans doorsteps


But don`t you think that`s a bit silly? North Korea is laughably irrelevant (they are in no position to "aid" anybody), so don`t even bring them into it. As for China waging "all out war" on Japan - it would never happen. You have think about business interests. This is not about history texts or Japan apologising, it`s about two countries competing to be #1 in Asia. It`s about economics (the real "power" in this day and age), and for that you must consider the rest of world and globalisation.
China represents much more economic potential to the world, but Japan is far more important at present. If the Chinese gov`t doesn`t realise that, then they are just plain stupid (which I don`t think is the case).

You underestimate Japan. It`s not a 3rd world country to be kicked around, it`s a member of the G7 (or G8 theseday?) and an economic powerhouse. In terms of wealth, infrastructure, technology, and international support etc., China doesn`t come close.
The problem is that China believes itself to be a really important country with it`s billion people etc. And it will be someday, it`s probably inevitable (no one would argue that), but not yet. Just having a large army with a lot of manpower doesn`t make China superior to Japan (anymore than it makes China superior to say, the United States).

Even if we wanted to suspend disbelief and postulate what might hypothetically happen if the two were ever to have an "all out war" in the near future (all outside factors, and especially nuclear weapons, aside), then I still say China would get its ass totally kicked (for the second time). If Japan (which also has a lot of manpower) were ever to really mobilise and utilise its vastly superior technology/industrial capability (hard to imagine, I know), it would be no competition. China would never land a foot on Japanese soil.
Since that scenario must be limited to the realm of fiction, we should be realistic. Because Japan has a bigger economy (an since Japan and China`s economies are so inter-dependant), it therefore has more bargaining power. That is why China shouldn`t act so tough - bluffing is dangerous, and the Japanese aren`t stupid.
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malcoml



Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 215
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both China and Korea have atleast some nuclear capabilities as far as I have been informed. Japan on the other had has does not. In this case Korea and China hold the upper hand.
I dont think many nations will be in a rush to aid Japan as WWII is still fresh in the memory of many older people in the community. Perhapes in another generation they may be looked at differently.
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Synne



Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are comparing Japan in strength to China?

...I dont mean to sound rude but maybe you should take a look at some of the statistics regarding world military strength leaders and economic based powerhouses before you so loosely shout out comments like...

Quote:
China would get its ass totally kicked


with only about the second largest airforce, the second largest navy, and largest personel to draw from of any army in the world...

...right.

Who are you to make such an assumption?

Quote:
North Korea is laughably irrelevant (they are in no position to "aid" anybody), so don`t even bring them into it.


Laughably irrelevant?
Take a look at their leaders most hated country.


Really everyone is just throwing out opinions, but we should take a look at the facts, we should take a look at how close Japan and China are.

Take a look at how much hatred is directed at Japan by asian countries...

...I dont mean to say Japan is a push over but in no way do I believe they could hold their own if China went head to head with them.
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Cshannon



Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I dont think many nations will be in a rush to aid Japan as WWII is still fresh in the memory of many older people in the community. Perhapes in another generation they may be looked at differently


You don`t think they will be? As if it`s actually going to happen? Even if it could, it wouldn`t be influenced by public opinion in China. The older generation`s memories are not relevant in politics. I sincerely doubt that the Chinese gov`t cares in the least about all that. What the Chinese public thinks/feels is irrelevant seeing as it`s not a democratic country. Keep it on a purely political level and you will see how little difference an official Japanese apology (including amending all white-washed textbooks) would make.
The same goes for politics in western countries. Do you think the Bush administration et al care about what happened 70 years ago? Not likely. They are concerned with politics of the day, and I`ll bet Japan`s well-being is a higher priority for them than the feelings of Chinese war victims.
Don`t forget that to all intents and purposes Japan and America are allies -- they once worked together to "contain" China, and this relationship is still quite strong regardless of the fact that China has since "opened up". Japanese/American economies are also very much intertwined -- more than between China and any country as far as I can guess.
Think about the structure of power between the powerful countries in the world. Japan is on the highest levels with some of the biggest banks, investors, companies and assets etc. (despite also having the biggest public debt...). I seriously doubt America et al would stand by and allow Japan to be attacked. I think it`s obvious.

As for nuclear weapons, ever heard of a thing called MAD? Of course you have. I doubt it`s even a consideration -- I`ll give China more credit than than at least.
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