Site Search:
 
TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe
TEFL Courses, TESOL Course, English Teaching Jobs - TEFL International
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

how bad must SARS be before you'll leave beautiful formosa?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Taiwan
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
killian



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 936
Location: fairmont city, illinois, USA

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 3:16 pm    Post subject: how bad must SARS be before you'll leave beautiful formosa? Reply with quote

how bad must SARS be before you pack up? i can see no sane reason to sit around. things only seem to be getting worse. just cause camus had his plague doesn't mean we gotta sit through this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Okami



Joined: 25 Jan 2003
Posts: 121
Location: Sunny Sanxia

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they close the schools for a long period of time(2+ months) then I'll leave. Otherwise I'll sit it out.

I think the gov't has handled this with the usual trademark Chinese incompetence(for those of you screaming racist, please read "Officialdom Unmasked"). We're in this SARS thing for the long haul and I don't see this as a disease I might get, but when will I get it.

I would feel more confident in Western medical care, but I'll make do. This will pass. I'm already hearing stupid things like Caucasians aren't as susceptible to SARS as Asians. I'm sure I'll here a lot more.

The irony is people are staying home to not get SARS from the people who should stay home to not infect others. I like how Mainland is threatening to kill or imprison for life anybody purposely breaking their quarantine.

CYA
Okami
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheyCallMeTrinity



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Taiwan, at the moment

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 7:35 pm    Post subject: Plague island Reply with quote

[quote="Okami"]If they close the schools for a long period of time(2+ months) then I'll leave. Otherwise I'll sit it out.

I said the same thing. Now I've made up my mind and I'm outta here no later than July. If the government can't handle this situation how can they handle bigger (I shudder to think) crisis'?

I think the gov't has handled this with the usual trademark Chinese incompetence(for those of you screaming racist, please read "Officialdom Unmasked"). We're in this SARS thing for the long haul and I don't see this as a disease I might get, but when will I get it.


That's the most NON-RACIST statement you could make. It's dead on. A spade is a spade here and by refusing to voice our opinions on a thoroughly corrupt government we pay taxes to (well, I'm legal - so I can speak for me, not you: no offense). You can take the Chinese out of China but you can't take the Chinese out of Taiwan - if you know what I mean. What I say, and how I read what you write are indictments directed at the culture and not the race: BIG difference.


I would feel more confident in Western medical care, but I'll make do. This will pass. I'm already hearing stupid things like Caucasians aren't as susceptible to SARS as Asians. I'm sure I'll here a lot more.

I too feel more confident in the competent, professional, generally compassionate WESTERN medical care. Like you I figure we all will get this virus at one time or another and I'd rather go back to my country - which has a small infection rate and a zero-percent death rate - if that's the case; or at least to acoutry that offers competent healthcare and a less idiotic government.

Here's the latest, disturbing Chinese/Taiwanese spin on SARS: it came from America. I had four students who insist on this point but can't back it up with facts for me to look at. They simply say "I read it on the web." I'm honest when I tell folks I can't abck up my belief that SARS is a result of botched Chinese biological weapons experiments - but I do believe it. I do leave the door open for any logicalguess, provided it can be proven. Even with my theory, I do not promote it as fact. At least I'm human enough to admit it's a simple guess and not proven fact. The point is that they have no proof but in typical local fashion believe what they read and need no proof and still state unverified conjecure as fact and do not present it as a belief the ycan't substantiate but do see validity to. Unfortunately it's not due to their lack of linguistic skills, as it would be easier to blow off.




The irony is people are staying home to not get SARS from the people who should stay home to not infect others. I like how Mainland is threatening to kill or imprison for life anybody purposely breaking their quarantine.



Its not so ironic when you take into consideration how the locals drive outside of Taipei. When one considers that over 2,900 children die in vehicular homicide on the island a year (according to the DOH): all of them "accidents", nd how almost no one seems to care about the overall public welfare/sanitary conditions and accept responsibility for their actions - it isn't so ironic when you see how people hoarde masks and "medical professionals" claim about their "human rights" on TV when their patients lie sick and dying in the hospital. It's not ironic when people find it more admirable when you can use the "back door" to any rule than to go through the offical way of doing things (admitedly more difficult). Lest we forget, they have an Adolf Hitler look-alike (draw the moustache on chen Shui-bian and you'll see the stunning resemblence, complete with hair stle) who won his ENTIRE campain on a forum of inciting ethnic hatred by pitting the hokklo majority against perceived "waishenren." Rather than take precautions before anything could happen he stood around bragging and pointingfingers at China. I see no irony. Maybe my mask is fogging my glasses...

Welcome to Plague Island! Nothing's ironic - it's all simply sad and tragic.

Teacher #3 leaving his school because of the country's inability to control sars,

Trinity
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Egas
Guest





PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taiwan is going through the same phase as Hong Kong and Beijing went through. It's called the panic phase. It's the phase where otherwise sane people become hysterical and begin screaming "apocalypse." Shocked No, not everyone will get the virus. Look at ther facts. In every other place where SARS has taken hold it has plateaued after a month or so. Numbers begin to fall after this. Why should Taiwan be any different? Get a grip. The hysteria in each country which has had SARS can be largely attributed to the media feeding frenzy. When 200 people die in a month in China, the media goes berserk. When more than 200 000 people die each month in the world from malaria, not a headline to speak of or a tv camera is there to catch the action.

And if you guys are so keen on western medicine you might like to know that 35 000 people die each year in the USA from pneumonia. But that's just life you might say. Consider then, that 100 000 (yes, one hundred thousand) people die in the US health system each year from medical mistakes, including misdiagnosis, doctor incompetence, being given the wrong medicine etc. Hope you are not feeling ill when you get back.

We in the west are so sure of our superiority to other races. We are nothing but hypocrites and ignoramuses. We are not so different from the rest of the world. It's just we can see the mythologies of distant lands more easily than we can our own. We see delusion in the other before we will look at ourselves in the mirror and acknowledge our own

So if you are from the States, stay in Taiwan. A few hundred mostly old and sick people will die from SARS this year in Taiwan. Back in the good old USA over 10 000 people will be murdered this year. But I guess at least you can pack a gun legally in the states. That should make you feel safe.

Personally, I'm hanging around here in Beijing. The weather is nice and while the bugs can be nasty, at least there are no terrorists trying to blow me up. Have a nice day! Twisted Evil
Back to top
wix



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 250
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okami wrote:
I like how Mainland is threatening to kill or imprison for life anybody purposely breaking their quarantine.


I don't.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chi-chi



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 127
Location: Back in Asia!

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm out as soon as I can save up the money/get a job in Japan.
As far as the guy staying in Beijing, no you can't always avoid trouble, but it will only follow you if you go to it. Stay safe and be careful.
I'm not too thrilled about being here right now with this going on, but it took a huge time and money investment to get here and I at least would like to get back on my feet again before I leave.
I came from Korea and it probably would not be good to go back right now, as they have troubles of their own for the time being.
As far as the Middle East, we all know what happened yesterday....
Is nowhere safe anymore? Laugh, whatever. But things have been crazy lately....
Chi-Chi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Egas
Guest





PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chi-chi,

You are mistaken. Things have not been crazy lately. People have been crazy lately. Your chances of dying from SARS are infintesimally small. You may get it and die, but you will probably die in a scooter accident or from another form of pneumonia first. You are mortal. You are vulnerable. You are going to die one day. Nothing has changed much. It's just that your focus has changed, along with the media and the national psyche.

I can bet that if you spend eight hours a day pondering work place accident statistics, pouring over figures, listening to victims' families stories of heartbreak and despair, that you will become very scared very quickly. The reality is that hundreds of times more people die in work place accidents in Taiwan than are currently dying from SARS. Or ever will die from SARS. But you are not focussed upon that figure. The SARS issue is 99% about human perception, 1% about the virus. Understand that and you will be spared the trauma that most people are putting themselves through.
Back to top
EOD



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 167
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that bad.
The epidemic is on the rise still. Keep an eye on the numbers. The fact is there may be no place safe until a treatment or vaccine is available. Taiwan and China may be one of the safer areas because they have experience in dealing with this particular pathogen and be more alert to its presence in the future. As for all the schools being closed and no pay, take a vacation. Of course that may be difficult if you have to spend two weeks in quarantine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
TheyCallMeTrinity



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Taiwan, at the moment

PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2003 7:09 pm    Post subject: Denial-files Reply with quote

Egas wrote:
Taiwan is going through the same phase as Hong Kong and Beijing went through. It's called the panic phase.



No, it's called INCOMPETENT MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL STAGE. if you weren't so biased towards teh west you'd see that we have agood history ofcontaining epidemics, unlike Taiwan and China, who come to us for help because the ycan't solve tings on their own. Hell, their own people can't behave so the professionals can contain this thing. Look at the numbers.




It's the phase where otherwise sane people become hysterical and begin screaming "apocalypse." Shocked No, not everyone will get the virus.


Yawn. Can i quote you on this if you ever get it? Will you agree with this if one day you're on a rhespirator because the person who infected you was supposed to be on home quarantine but felt the need to go out and see MATRIX REVOLUTIONS? That's the kind of b. s. that's happening here, and my point was I'm not worried about the disease but the government and "professionals" dealing with the situation.


Come back to us once you get a dose of reality.




Look at ther facts. In every other place where SARS has taken hold it has plateaued after a month or so. Numbers begin to fall after this. Why should Taiwan be any different? Get a grip.

Maybeyou should get a grip rather that resport in illogical and unwarranted America-bashing (yawn).

What makesTaiwan different?

Let's count the ways.....

Government poitns finger at China while it suffers and does NOTHING to take preventative steps even though its heaviest business is with China these days. frequent travelers come and go from China and Hong Kong to taiwan. NO checks at airports. NOTHING. Just bragging. Now there's some unfortunately humble pie filling chen Shui-bian's big mouth, in the form of a foot.

DOH officials know of outbreaks and cases in municipal hospitals. president gets a call days before he takes action on Ho Ping hospital and by then 20000 people have come and gone from teh hospital which is now the reported source for 90% of the island's infections and probable infections.

So, steps one and two: no preventative measures but political posturing by Da-bien in the President's office.

Two: Health officials complying with the blame game than taking steps "just in case."

Say what you will with your bogus slams against the American health system (not perfect, but compared to China nadtaiwa: it's heaven), but we are the people who have zero deaths and have contained the disease - and haven't bragged about it. Hmmmm. Seems like we do something right.

Step three: people ehre violate home quarantine. This puts others at risk, as well as the health of those ordered to stay home in the first place.

Step four:Government does nothingto contain infections and protect medical staff in municipal hospitals. Throw your useless finger poinging at the 3 doctors and numerous nurses ding/dead from this. Spread your denial to their greiving families. Some of us have no patience for it. It's this DENIAL STAGE that has caused the outbreak to worsen in China and Taiwan.

Step Five: Greed. Pharmacies and distributors and now the government have hoarded masks. Denial-files like yourself claim masks do nothing, but why do they protect healthcare workers and preventinfection when used propperly? So, no masks and dangerous denial-files and thegred mongers help to insure more people get sick and die.

I worry more about getting sick than dying. I get sick I can't work I don't get paid. I get sick I have to trust the "medical professionals" on this island that have a history ofover-medicating and misdiagnosing that puts your fabricated facts about America to Shame. Even the LOCALS prefer foreign doctors and going overseas for treatment they could receive here.




The hysteria in each country which has had SARS can be largely attributed to the media feeding frenzy. When 200 people die in a month in China, the media goes berserk. When more than 200 000 people die each month in the world from malaria, not a headline to speak of or a tv camera is there to catch the action.



1 persondying is too many. Your recklessviews towards human life are disturbing. you ahve been in China for too long. Come back to reality and reaquaint yourself with humanity. Casual dismissal of 200 lives is sickening. You'd feel differently if your family members were among the "200." As forCina it's into the THOUSANDS in terms of infections.

Again, Denial is a dangerous thing.

And if you guys are so keen on western medicine you might like to know that 35 000 people die each year in the USA from pneumonia. But that's just life you might say. Consider then, that 100 000 (yes, one hundred thousand) people die in the US health system each year from medical mistakes, including misdiagnosis, doctor incompetence, being given the wrong medicine etc. Hope you are not feeling ill when you get back.


Yawn. Denial mode. You seem more panicy than others with such enial. it's like watchingan Irwin Allen disaster film. Folks denying THE SWARM as the bees pounce on small towns. LOL! You do have a sense of humor - at least you strike me as making a joke. If you sincerely believe what you wrote, then it is frightening. It seems like it's crank-yanking tough, so I assume you're joking.




We in the west are so sure of our superiority to other races. We are nothing but hypocrites and ignoramuses. We are not so different from the rest of the world. It's just we can see the mythologies of distant lands more easily than we can our own. We see delusion in the other before we will look at ourselves in the mirror and acknowledge our own


We don'thave 5000 years ofcorruption tojustify how recklessly we drie ad how e justif our lack of respectfor human life ona dailyscale. Tawan and China do. it's always been "fend for myself." In the west we have a mixed history, but we band together as communities more than China or Taiwan. We organize, protest and act. Outside of tianamen -name recent proof of this? Farmers panicing inBeijing? that doesn't count. We're talking people banding together to help each other. Doesn't happen here. there is no sense of community in Chinese culture. Fact. Only family. I'm proud of my western heritage and yes, Isee itas an example of the triumphs of humanity. I thank my lucky stars daily - that I was born in a developed nation and have civic pride and respect humanity. I also know that you can't back peddle on 5000 years of history when you discount the value of the human lives around you.

Wecould learn a few things form the East, but the East can learn a LOT MORE from the west. I didn't create this imbalance, but it's clearly the case. With Taiwan being the seventh richest country in the world (distirbution of weathon the island withstanding) there are no excuses for its primitive reaction to the SARS pandemic, especially when piss-poor Vietnam contained the disease, as have Singapore and Canada.



So if you are from the States, stay in Taiwan. A few hundred mostly old and sick people will die from SARS this year in Taiwan. Back in the good old USA over 10 000 people will be murdered this year. But I guess at least you can pack a gun legally in the states. That should make you feel safe.



This is sick and I'm surprised the moderators didn't yank it. Throwing in your hilariously PANICED gun diatribe (whton earthdoes that have to do with anything - btw, per capita CANADA has more guns than the U. S. - but you just fabricate things rather than base your liabelous claims on fact). Oh - and the gun violence issue has to do wth a clure of fear in as much as guns. People like you scare me more than guns (but I'm no fan of firearms, either).


DON'T STAY IN Taiwan if you feel unsure or if you feel your safety is in danger. It's a personal choice, but ignore the denial-files!

Personally, I'm hanging around here in Beijing. The weather is nice and while the bugs can be nasty, at least there are no terrorists trying to blow me up. Have a nice day! Twisted Evil



Oh yes, let's make fun of the -3000 plus people wo died on September 11th, or the 200 people in Bali, or the 90 in Riyadha. You're a spot-on example of all that's wrong with expat culture. Why do you post here if you're in Beijing? Please stay there! Please grow up and learn to respect the dead, as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Egas
Guest





PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheyCallMeTrinity,

You are free to choose your reaction to SARS. If its fear and anger you choose, then so be it. My post was to point out the reality that SARS is not the apocalypse, not to denigrate human life, as you seem so keen to insist. I live in Beijing, in the Chinese community. I am the only foreigner amongst the thousands of people in this compound. I have a Chinese partner, speak Chinese and have Chinese friends. I have better access to what is happenning in the Chinse community than most people, and I suspect more than you. So don't call me an "ex-pat". That is a pointless lable. I also lived in Taiwan for over two years, so I have some idea of Taiwanese culture. I have also been to Hong Kong last month, so I know what is going on there.

I work in a school with well over 2000 students and teachers. The entire school community is around 10 000 if you include the parents, families and support staff. yet we have not had a single incidence of SARS. My point is that this is not a statistical abberation. The odds of any given individual getting SARS is tiny. That is my ecntral point, and you have not addressed this in your post. In my post I focused on the emotional reaction to SARS in the general community. I stated that it was mostly ill-founded. I stand by that. Your reaction and hatred for the Taiwanese and their authorities has been seen in Hong Kong and China by the foreigners there. I'm a few weeks ahead of you, my friend. And although the economic effects of SARS will linger, and some form of the disease, the panic and blame phase will pass. You are still in that phase.

The hysteria of the general community is unnecessary. SARS is not highly infectious, despite its viralence. IIt is not an airborne disease. I have spoken personally to doctors in the field in Beijing. They support my opinion about SARS, and agree that at the current extent of the disease, it is unnecessary to panic. In Beijing at the authorities are handling the situation fairly well. They are isolating anyone who has even the slightest symptoms. After the initial cover-up, they learnt from their mistake.

My post is simply to demonstrate that you have a choice about how you perceive the current sitution. My choice to stay in Beijing and get on with life is based on direct experience in Beijing, the so called SARS central of China. The American doctors I spoke with are not leaving Beijing, despite being in the highest risk category. Neither am I. That is my choice, and based upon the extent of SARS at present, it is a a perfectly legitimate choice. If I am willing to step into a taxi in a country which has 12 000 road deaths a month, then I cannot legitimately leave this country because it has 200 or so SARS deaths per month. By the way those infected by SARS currently represent around 0.0000004% of the population of China. This and my reference to murder rates and workplace deaths etc. is to place SARS in perspective. You cannot get that perspective through the media, which has placed SARS under the microscope and magified it to hundreds of times its true size. That is why SARS is more about perception than a virus.

Now having written all this I know it will mean nothing to you, and only send you into a greater frenzy of persecution and anger. I know because I have seen it before, in China and in Hong Kong.
Back to top
Egas
Guest





PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In restrospect i should make the following clear. Although the panic is passing in Beijing, we still have SARS here, and there is still risk of infection. What has happened is that people are now coming out of their houses and beginning to live again. The realisation has dawned that SARS is not the end of the world.

I still chose to go out, eat out and go to a bar once a week to socialise. But not everyone has the same attitude as this. That is a personal choice. The reason i still do these things is that the risk is so small that i choose to take it. As I said, the risk is much smaller, than say, for dying in a car accident. But this does not mean that I, or You for that matter are immune from SARS. I am not advocating recklessness.

The reality is though, that in the general community SARS is to a large degree beyond personal control. The panic phase i think is closely associated with that sense of the unknown, of lack of control. But my point is that really that is not much different from most mortality risks eg car accident, work place accident, pneumonia, murder etc. Still, at present in Taiwan and China, the risks associated with SARS are a lot lower than all of these, except possibly murder.

But the panic will pass. After a few weeks, when the Taiwanese realise that the wold is not going to end, the fear will diminish. But having said this life will be far from normal. Although people are starting to go out again here in beijing, they are still wary. The hotel and hospitality industries have been devastated, and many others have suffered and will continue to do so. Any decision you choose to make about staying in Taiwan should consider these economic factors.
Back to top
TaoyuanSteve



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2003 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egas

I have to say that I appreciate your cooler, more respectful tone and more objective viewpoint in regards to this issue. Some people on this forum have disliked Taiwan-- and all things Chinese-- for some time and are now using SARS to justify their own pre-existing prejudices. BTW guard your user id. People here also like to steal it to try and open fraudulent accounts on other sites.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sunpower



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 256
Location: Taipei, TAIWAN

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2003 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egas wrote:
Things have not been crazy lately. People have been crazy lately. Your chances of dying from SARS are infintesimally small. You may get it and die, but you will probably die in a scooter accident or from another form of pneumonia first. You are mortal. You are vulnerable. You are going to die one day. Nothing has changed much...t's just that your focus has changed, along with the media and the national psyche.

I can bet that if you spend eight hours a day pondering work place accident statistics, pouring over figures, listening to victims' families stories of heartbreak and despair, that you will become very scared very quickly. The reality is that hundreds of times more people die in work place accidents in Taiwan than are currently dying from SARS. Or ever will die from SARS. But you are not focussed upon that figure. The SARS issue is 99% about human perception, 1% about the virus. Understand that and you will be spared the trauma that most people are putting themselves through.


My thoughts exactly.

Well put!

And like I said about AIDS on the other thread - Not too much reporting about the millions that will die of that disease this year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
TheyCallMeTrinity



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Taiwan, at the moment

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2003 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egas,


You can deal with SARS as you wish: denial and insulting behavior.

So be it.

Save your America basing for other forums, as the subject was Taiwan and SARS, and you seem to be in China, talking about America.Odd, eh?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheyCallMeTrinity



Joined: 02 Feb 2003
Posts: 44
Location: Taiwan, at the moment

PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2003 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TaoyuanSteve wrote:
Egas

I have to say that I appreciate your cooler, more respectful tone and more objective viewpoint in regards to this issue. Some people on this forum have disliked Taiwan-- and all things Chinese-- for some time and are now using SARS to justify their own pre-existing prejudices. BTW guard your user id. People here also like to steal it to try and open fraudulent accounts on other sites.



Yes, the uncalled orAmerica-bashing was "cool and respectful."

Steve, if you don't want people to reply to you or use your name (Taoyuan Steve) then don't go slamming them.

You assume I dislike "all things Chinese" but you are wrong. that's liablous and I dare say you should read things carefully. I do, however, attack any culture that elicits the bahvior that Taiwan and China have displayed in the face of SARS. As a taxpayer inTawian, I have that RIGHT. now, if yo uwant to livein denial and paint an innacurate "happy" pictue of an island in crisis, by all means go ahead. DO NOT attack tose with a differeing opinion.

Perhaps that is what you talk about when your warning?

Please behave maturely,

Trinity
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Taiwan All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2011 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Road2Spain - TEFL and Spanish with one year student visa
EBC