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[glace]

I really enjoy teaching and living here in Vietnam. The only problem I seem to have this love/hate relationship with the VN language. I really enjoy studying and learning it and speaking it whenever I have the chance.

Vietnamese is similar to Chinese in that it is a tonal language, it has 5 different tones which completely change the meaning of the word. For example �la�(low tone) = strange, �la� low falling tone = to be, �la� sharp rising tone = a leaf, �la� flat tone = to shout, and �la� falling rising tone = well, I haven�t learned this one yet, but it means something... If the tones weren�t enough, the pronunciation of the many of the vowel, dipthong and consonant sounds are also very different from those of English, and it can be rather difficult to get them down. All of that is fine by me as it keeps it interesting and challenging. It has given me a wonderful hobby here in Vietnam.

After about 3 years of regular study both at school and on my own , my skills are coming along well. My pronunciation(which I have put a lot of effort into) is good and clear, my grammar is getting better and better though I still make quite a few mistakes in some areas where the grammar is remains confusing to me. Vietnamese grammar might be considered rather simple, but it becomes complex in it�s simplicity. There ore no tenses, nouns and verbs often don�t change forms, etc. Also. the listener has to infer a lot of meaning. An English speaker has to fight the tendency to �over grammar� a Vietnamese sentence. For example in English we would say: �If I tell you in advance, it won�t be interesting� compared with Vietnamse �Tell before lose interesting�. My vocabulary is quite strong and my listening skills are not bad as long as I have the vocabulary for the particular subject and/or the speaker doesn�t go ultra fast.

I would probably put my level realistically as pre-intermediate or lower-intermediate. My skills have been and still are steadily building over the course of my study. I can, for example have a conversation about a variety of subjects comfortably for an hour and a half or so with anyone I meet. This is the �love� part.

The �hate� part is the amount of times that I have said something to someone in Vietnamese only to be answered back in English. They have understood me fine, but for whatever reason have chosen to answer in English. I feel it�s very rude but more importantly it really erodes my confidence and it takes away the fun and purposefulness of learning the language. This happens in a number of different ways, Let me give you a few examples:

1)The dual language conversation: I say or ask something in Vietnamese and they answer in English. Sometimes this turns into a copetition of sorts, or a ridiculous conversation where I speak vn and they speak English. I feel really self-conscious and unnatural in that situation. This is my least favorite�

2)The O-K, O-K, OK effect. This happens when I make a polite request and the listener answers with a barrage of �O-k, O-k, O-k!� I think this is actually well meaning - they just think they are speaking English. The problem is the tone they say it with sounds to the English ear like �OK, OK!! Stop bothering me!� I don�t see what it would cost them to just answer nicely.

3) The �Oh, you speak Vietnamese?�: Sometimes someone hears me speak Vietnamese and comments in English �You can speak Vietnamese well�. I think to myself, why didn�t you just say it in VN? That would have felt like more of a compliment, or better yet, just engage in some conversation with me.

4)The translation conversation: Sometimes I�ll be in the middle of a conversation and the speaker will translate words for me that I had understood anyway. For example I�ll ask what he studied at college and he�ll answer �Toi hoc nganh vat ly hoc�Physics�. He�ll continue to do so in every other sentence. When that happens I feel that there was no reason for me to speak his language in the first place and that maybe he has judged my level to be to low to understand these words.

5) The laugher: with the person that speaks at a higher level than me, I often feel that their attitude is very condiscending. For example I�ll say something and they laugh as if I had just done a trick. I just can�t imagine a native English speaker laughing at someone who speaking English as a foreign language.

6)Vietnamese lesson?: About a year ago I even had a VN teacher who insited on speaking English unnecissarily. I�m convinced he was more interested in practicing his English than teaching VN. I asked for a replacement. I don�t want to preach, but when teaching English, I rarely speak any VN except maybe the odd joke at break time or to clear up something they just don�t get. I really don�t think they are paying to hear me speak VN and I feel the same about my teachers.

Of course most these examples only happen with people that can speak English or some English. When I speak with someone with no English, it�s fine. But here in Saigon a lot of people speak some level of English and even if it�s really bad they are usually dying to practice it. I sometimes wonder, if I speak the same level as the other speaker, which languge should we speak in? I tend to lean towards VN, because, afterall we�re here in vn. Plus, after teaching all day, I just don�t feel like having the same conversations during my free time. What�s the proper ettiquite?

I really don�t mean to whine, and I should make it clear that I regularly have successful and wonderful communications with all sorts of locals and have found it quite rewarding. It has helped me learn about this culture, made my daily life easier, and improved my own teaching. But what it boils down to is that my biggest fear when speaking Vietnamese is that if I make one mistake, if I say one thing too slowly the other person will switch to English. This has not only hurt my cofidence in speaking VN but in some cases has also made me feel distant from many VN people. I don�t want either of these, so I�m looking for advice. Have any of you had any experiences like these in any foreign languages you have learned? What can I do to overcome or at least deal with this problem in a positive way?

[Tamago86]

I've been where you are many times so I figured I'd throw in what I have to say. I started learning Japanese at a young age, and got it to the point where I was good enough to attend school in Japan with other Japanese students in history, science, core curriculum etc. Yet, I'm American with pale skin and blonde hair and blue eyes, and thus for better or for worse will always be a Westerner. I've also learned some Mandarin and have made many Chinese friends so I know what it's like dealing with a tonal language, at least the fundamentals, so I'll try to help.

Now for how you're feeling, it's completely natural. I'll comment on your numbers one at a time:

1) You should put yourself in the shoes/sandals of the Vietnamese person. They're PROUD to speak English and show off what they know, they want recognition and praise for speaking English as much as you want it for speaking Vietnamese.

2) "I don�t see what it would cost them to just answer nicely"
What's nice to one culture might be rude to another, and vice versa. In Japan too there's a thing called aizuti, which is basically a constant string of "HAI, HAI, HAI" while another person is speaking. It's not to interrupt or shrug the person off, it's to let you know that they're listening to what you're saying and paying close attention. What if Vietnamese people think it rude that you just stare at them while they talk? How do they know you're still following? My guess is this OK! OK! thing you experience is the same kind of thing. It may also be a face-saving device, to let you know the Vietnamese person understands your English, even he doesn't. But again it's about seeing through eyes of the Vietnamese, chances are they don't know how to act anything other than what they've grown up with, they have no idea what is considered rude by you, or why it should be.

3) This happened all the time with me and still does. The most likely case is they might be doubtful of the extent of your knowledge of the language, and not want to put you on the spot by blurting out lines of Vietnamese. Think of how many people come to Vietnam and know only things like "Hello!" and "Nice weather", then compare it to the people who take the time to learn it to the extent you do, and you can see why the safe bet is usually to assume the person knows very little Vietnamese and save them the embarrassment. Keep on talking to them in Vietnamese, and they'll come to realize that you can understand more than just mundane phrases and hopefully talk back. If they continue speaking English, they might not understand what you're saying. This isn't a shot at you specifically, but alot of us tend to overestimate our speaking skills, and are quick to blame others for it. I've seen many foreigners in Japan become frusterated when not understood, despite swearing they spoke it correctly. Indeed, sometimes people's definition of "fluent" is a funny concept. The problem was usually that they couldn't speak it, or they spoke in such an English accent it sounded like Japlish more than Japanese. I don't think this is your problem considering you've had plenty of sucessful conversations already, but it's something to consider. Some people aren't good at understanding foreign speakers, this will especially hold true for Vietnamese people, who will probably never be used to seeing a foreigner speak their language. People who feel uncomfortable talking in their mother tongue with you will switch to yours.

4) I think this is a mix of what I have pointed out before. Perhaps the Vietnamese person is proud of his ability to name advanced subjects in English that regular Vietnamese not be able to. Maybe he's trying to make sure you understand what he says, because he's not used to foreigners speaking Vietnamese. This is something you need to get used to when meeting people and speaking their language with them, first will come doubt. The solution is the same, just keep talking. Do these people persist in giving you translations an hour after they've been talking to you? a day? There's always a point where they start to think "ok, I guess this foreigner's got it". That's the point you should try to advance to as soon as possible if you want to avoid things like this, and it'll be easy when you reach higher levels I bet. Start making references to Newton in Vietnamese and see what he has to say then.

5) This is problem for alot of us native-english speakers to deal with, I've experienced it many times with Chinese people and even Koreans. In our culture, laughing at someone is a negative thing and shouldn't be done when someone is struggling with something. I have not seen this connontation in Asian cultures at all. Laughing is a sign of happiness, a sign that the person is happy you're speaking their language and he/she loves the attempt your making, it's not a sign a mockery at all. If Vietnamese people are like Chinese people, if they want to make fun of your accent/tones/way of speaking they'll do it with words and to your face. Laughing is a good sign, you'll need to work to lose your idea that it's a bad thing. I had to too. As for the other part, do you feel people that speak at a higher level are condescending? Are they speaking about advanced things because they know you'll understand? Or are they speaking at advanced levels because they think you'll understand, because they're already impressed with your level of Vietnamese and want to see how far it goes? "Tests" like this aren't too uncommon, but they're harmless. You should feel good that they speak like that with you, instead of switching to English, it means they rate your Vietnamese very highly, and wish to try speaking in fluent Vietnamese with you.

6) You pretty much hit the nail on the head, people want free English lessons. They're not there because they want to teach you Vietnamese, they want a foreign face that opens it's mouth and magical English words come pouring out! You will experience this in any Asian country you go to, China & Japan are especially famous (infamous) for it, and the problem you have with this is one that's shared by alot of people. Solution? Say you have a 1 hour lesson, demand that 30 minutes be spoken in English and 30 minutes be spoken in Vietnamese, and don't stray from it AT ALL. Make this very clear from the start, and push it on them, and you may be pleasently surprised.

Hmm..For proper ettiquite, I'd say speak absolutely speak Vietnamese until you're forced to switch. Sometimes people just want to be humored with alittle English and show off as I've said before, and that'll be the extent of their knowledge, at which point you can continue speaking Vietnamese. Don't be one of those people who refuses to speak English at all with people, but do switch back to Vietnamese as soon as you see the opening (ie person just stares and smiles, stops understanding your English) And as you pointed out, there are people who won't speak English at all, thus it's safer to speak the native tongue of the area to not embarass the person (sound familiar?) If the person speaks on the same level you do, it's really just a flip of a coin. With Japanese people who've been abroad and speak both fluent English and Japanese, it tends to be a mixed combination of both for me, and then there might be days where I find myself speaking all English with them, and all Japanese...It's random and I don't think much of it, because chances are the person who speaks at your level has been through painful and frusterating experiences of his own, so he/she will feel your pain.

Like I said before, when people think you don't understand them they'll switch to your native tongue to try to communicate, this seems to be a universal rule. How to fix it? You can't, really. But realize that it's only temporary, and that it's only a matter of time before the natives deem you a fluent Vietnamese speaker, at which point you might be wishing they'd switch to English Don't let it hurt your confidence at all, just view it as a temporary helping aide. And believe me it does happen, when you reach a level of a language and the people you talk to will answer back in their language with indifference. When people stop commenting you on your Vietnamese is when you'll know you're a damn good speaker, because at that point they just assume you can understand everything they say and they won't think twice about it, they won't see a need to coddle you because in their mind you're a completely different breed of foreigner now, one who they have to believe was born with Vietnamese or grew up in Vietnam thus of course he can speak it! You're no longer viewed as a foreigner, but you're not viewed as a Vietnamese either. Except by close friends who may forget

In the end, just remember you're doing something 99% of native English speakers visiting any foreign country, especially Asian, won't do: learn the native tongue. It's damned hard to continue at times and only people who have tried can understand, but it's so rewarding that by the time you can make Vietnamese go -> when you start speaking you'll be more than happy you did and have no regrets at all. It opens your eyes in way you can't understand, and I'm sure you know that already. The most helpful advice I can give you is DON'T GIVE UP and keep going, and always put yourself in the shoes of the other person and the person's culture. I was quite offended the first time my Chinese friend said "You'd be cuter if you were thinner", and then as time went on I realized it wasn't considered rude at all for Chinese to say such things, unlike in somewhere like America. I think this is the most important thing, to always keep an open mind about anything and everything.

I hope this has helped you