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legitimate job ads question
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yb713



Joined: 15 Sep 2013
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:13 pm    Post subject: legitimate job ads question Reply with quote

So are all of the ads on dave esl legitimate? How about the China board specifically? If not, how many are false? If they are false, are they take your info and perform identity theft false or get you to China and overwork you and underpay you false? What are some indicators?

Also, many people advocate going to China and applying in person, while others strongly advise against leaving before an offer has been made.

How do you think the market will be in two years?
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Alien abductee



Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yb713 wrote:
So are all of the ads on dave esl legitimate? How about the China board specifically? If not, how many are false? If they are false, are they take your info and perform identity theft false or get you to China and overwork you and underpay you false?

I don't know about false job ads because I've never encountered one personally. But if you arrive and find the job is different than described, like being overworked and underpaid, then you've got three choices. 1. Do nothing and cry about it. 2. Address the problem and get it sorted. 3. If you can't get it sorted, then quit.

yb713 wrote:
How do you think the market will be in two years?

Someone borrowed my Amazing Kreskin hat so I can't answer this question.
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yb713



Joined: 15 Sep 2013
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alien abductee wrote:
yb713 wrote:
So are all of the ads on dave esl legitimate? How about the China board specifically? If not, how many are false? If they are false, are they take your info and perform identity theft false or get you to China and overwork you and underpay you false?

I don't know about false job ads because I've never encountered one personally. But if you arrive and find the job is different than described, like being overworked and underpaid, then you've got three choices. 1. Do nothing and cry about it. 2. Address the problem and get it sorted. 3. If you can't get it sorted, then quit.

yb713 wrote:
How do you think the market will be in two years?

Someone borrowed my Amazing Kreskin hat so I can't answer this question.
Thanks for your input. I guess scammers are more common on beijinger and echinacities. Well, I was only asking what you think, not an accurate prediction.
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Guerciotti



Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Posts: 691
Location: In a sleazy bar killing all the bad guys.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yb, people advise against flying to China and looking because for a legitimate job you'll most likely need a Z visa secured in your home country. This ain't Thailand.

I don't know about all the ads, the ones I have answered are legit. If they tell you to come on anything but a Z visa, keep looking.

Cheers
Cool
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Non Sequitur



Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2603
Location: China

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only indicator I can think of as to how things will be in 2 years time is to consider how things have changed over the 2 years just gone.
The trend towards enforcing the age, experience and qualification requirements will continue.
Official RMB pay rates won't alter.
Effective US$ and other FT home currency pay rates will improve as RMB slowly increases in value.
The only certainty though is that in 2 years, a newb will post on Dave's:
'Is it OK to come to China on an L tourist visa and convert to Z once I get there. My recruitment agent says "Everyone does this"' Rolling Eyes
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dongbei united



Joined: 28 Feb 2014
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, many people advocate going to China and applying in person, while others strongly advise against leaving before an offer has been made.


If you go in person, how will you get to China? You will have to come on a tourist visa and plane ticket, or student visa which is more expensive. An F visa seems to be legally phased out as an option to transfer to a Z visa.

That means you will have to leave the country. It is possible to go to Hong Kong and then re-enter. Another teacher at my previous school did this, but he had to leave China twice and the school wouldn't pay the airfare the second time.

I suggest you get photos of the apartment, school classroom, and have direct communication with the school. It might not be the owner, but at least talk to other teachers (Chinese or foreigner). Don't just talk to the Chinese staff that interviews you, they don't do the teaching. They only do the legwork to get your visa and appease the owner.

Your first year is quite likely a stepping stone to a better job. Keep this in mind, be willing to sacrifice so you can get your foot in the door and interview in person for the second school. This was the case with me in Japan, Korea, and China. The first school never panned out, but I was closer to a second school which I stayed at longer.
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Juice



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A quick way to find out is to respond to the ad without sending them a resume to establish a friendly dialogue. Then send them this form letter and ask them politely to complete it and return it to you to establish enough trust to send them you resume and passport copy. If they refuse you can assume they either are: 1) not legit (not licensed to do business) 2. have something to hide from you, or 3) an identity thief

http://englishpost.com/data/attachment/forum/201303/15/172204rq6jrrzvqnnzhiir.jpg

Only my opinion. Others will disagree. Just remember these expat forums are a business and they don't make $ from teachers but from ad sales. Perhaps they should screen their advertisers more carefully, but money is trump to many people. There was a huge argument about this subject when echinacities.com was running ads for known scam agents even after they were exposed on their own website.
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The_Kong



Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juice wrote:
A quick way to find out is to respond to the ad without sending them a resume to establish a friendly dialogue. Then send them this form letter and ask them politely to complete it and return it to you to establish enough trust to send them you resume and passport copy. If they refuse you can assume they either are: 1) not legit (not licensed to do business) 2. have something to hide from you, or 3) an identity thief

http://englishpost.com/data/attachment/forum/201303/15/172204rq6jrrzvqnnzhiir.jpg

Only my opinion. Others will disagree. Just remember these expat forums are a business and they don't make $ from teachers but from ad sales. Perhaps they should screen their advertisers more carefully, but money is trump to many people. There was a huge argument about this subject when echinacities.com was running ads for known scam agents even after they were exposed on their own website.


As a manager who has been doing interviews/hiring for several years now I can tell that if anyone sent me that form I would not reply. It comes off as being dickish.

Plus, what's to keep a dishonest recruiter from lying? How are you going to verify the information they give you?

It's an empty threat to say your going to report them to an illegal union which I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of employers have never heard of and certainly won't be intimidated by.
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Juice



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Kong wrote:
Juice wrote:
A quick way to find out is to respond to the ad without sending them a resume to establish a friendly dialogue. Then send them this form letter and ask them politely to complete it and return it to you to establish enough trust to send them you resume and passport copy. If they refuse you can assume they either are: 1) not legit (not licensed to do business) 2. have something to hide from you, or 3) an identity thief

http://englishpost.com/data/attachment/forum/201303/15/172204rq6jrrzvqnnzhiir.jpg

Only my opinion. Others will disagree. Just remember these expat forums are a business and they don't make $ from teachers but from ad sales. Perhaps they should screen their advertisers more carefully, but money is trump to many people. There was a huge argument about this subject when echinacities.com was running ads for known scam agents even after they were exposed on their own website.


As a manager who has been doing interviews/hiring for several years now I can tell that if anyone sent me that form I would not reply. It comes off as being dickish.

Plus, what's to keep a dishonest recruiter from lying? How are you going to verify the information they give you?

It's an empty threat to say your going to report them to an illegal union which I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of employers have never heard of and certainly won't be intimidated by.


I think the request can be justified by sending them links about all the identity theft going down. See these two articles for example.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/07/us-crime-idtheft-idUSTRE7965TS20111007

http://open.salon.com/blog/china_business_central/2013/03/13/phony_china_recruiters_now_target_5000_expats_monthly_1

As for recruiters lying on the form they would be caught within an hour if they made up a SAIC license number that doesn't jive on the online database. And how can they make up a website or fake office address that can be checked with the leasing office? Take a look at the form. it is pretty direct and if they lie on the form, the contract sent for signatures would also reveal the discrepancies.

For example when I was solicited the recruiter used the name "Total Esl" but when the contract was emailed to me it was suddenly China ESL. If I had this form letter I would not have gotten stung because the money amounts would have been different as well as the name and there is no SAIC license issued to any "Total ESL" which is just one of many aliases used by their gang of bandits.
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The_Kong



Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juice wrote:
The_Kong wrote:
Juice wrote:
A quick way to find out is to respond to the ad without sending them a resume to establish a friendly dialogue. Then send them this form letter and ask them politely to complete it and return it to you to establish enough trust to send them you resume and passport copy. If they refuse you can assume they either are: 1) not legit (not licensed to do business) 2. have something to hide from you, or 3) an identity thief

http://englishpost.com/data/attachment/forum/201303/15/172204rq6jrrzvqnnzhiir.jpg

Only my opinion. Others will disagree. Just remember these expat forums are a business and they don't make $ from teachers but from ad sales. Perhaps they should screen their advertisers more carefully, but money is trump to many people. There was a huge argument about this subject when echinacities.com was running ads for known scam agents even after they were exposed on their own website.


As a manager who has been doing interviews/hiring for several years now I can tell that if anyone sent me that form I would not reply. It comes off as being dickish.

Plus, what's to keep a dishonest recruiter from lying? How are you going to verify the information they give you?

It's an empty threat to say your going to report them to an illegal union which I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of employers have never heard of and certainly won't be intimidated by.


I think the request can be justified by sending them links about all the identity theft going down. See these two articles for example.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/07/us-crime-idtheft-idUSTRE7965TS20111007

http://open.salon.com/blog/china_business_central/2013/03/13/phony_china_recruiters_now_target_5000_expats_monthly_1

As for recruiters lying on the form they would be caught within an hour if they made up a SAIC license number that doesn't jive on the online database. And how can they make up a website or fake office address that can be checked with the leasing office? Take a look at the form. it is pretty direct and if they lie on the form, the contract sent for signatures would also reveal the discrepancies.

For example when I was solicited the recruiter used the name "Total Esl" but when the contract was emailed to me it was suddenly China ESL. If I had this form letter I would not have gotten stung because the money amounts would have been different as well as the name and there is no SAIC license issued to any "Total ESL" which is just one of many aliases used by their gang of bandits.


So your idea is that the people who are too dumb to look up basic information on what visa they need to work legally in China, despite the very misleading name it's given...'Work Visa', are going to send out this silly form, which I guarantee will cost them a lot of jobs from reputable employers who find it insulting and/or a waste of time, and then once they have this information that same idiot who can't be bothered to do basic research is going to access the SAIC database and check out potential employers?

How can you make up a fake website?

Easy...ask the CFTU and their half a dozen sister sites that were set up with the sole purpose of linking back to the main site to make it appear legitimate, they also do this by setting up free blogs on various sites and then link back to said sites, also to make them appear like it's not run by one crazy con artist.

Fake address?

Your really going to contact the Chinese leasing office? Wouldn't it be more prudent to just exercise common sense in the first place? Please. How on Earth would someone looking for a first time job in China possibly have the resources to look up the contact information for a leasing office in the area they are looking for a job in and be able to communicate with the staff on any level whatsoever.
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yb713



Joined: 15 Sep 2013
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Kong wrote:
Juice wrote:
The_Kong wrote:
Juice wrote:
A quick way to find out is to respond to the ad without sending them a resume to establish a friendly dialogue. Then send them this form letter and ask them politely to complete it and return it to you to establish enough trust to send them you resume and passport copy. If they refuse you can assume they either are: 1) not legit (not licensed to do business) 2. have something to hide from you, or 3) an identity thief

http://englishpost.com/data/attachment/forum/201303/15/172204rq6jrrzvqnnzhiir.jpg

Only my opinion. Others will disagree. Just remember these expat forums are a business and they don't make $ from teachers but from ad sales. Perhaps they should screen their advertisers more carefully, but money is trump to many people. There was a huge argument about this subject when echinacities.com was running ads for known scam agents even after they were exposed on their own website.


As a manager who has been doing interviews/hiring for several years now I can tell that if anyone sent me that form I would not reply. It comes off as being dickish.

Plus, what's to keep a dishonest recruiter from lying? How are you going to verify the information they give you?

It's an empty threat to say your going to report them to an illegal union which I guarantee you the overwhelming majority of employers have never heard of and certainly won't be intimidated by.


I think the request can be justified by sending them links about all the identity theft going down. See these two articles for example.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/07/us-crime-idtheft-idUSTRE7965TS20111007

http://open.salon.com/blog/china_business_central/2013/03/13/phony_china_recruiters_now_target_5000_expats_monthly_1

As for recruiters lying on the form they would be caught within an hour if they made up a SAIC license number that doesn't jive on the online database. And how can they make up a website or fake office address that can be checked with the leasing office? Take a look at the form. it is pretty direct and if they lie on the form, the contract sent for signatures would also reveal the discrepancies.

For example when I was solicited the recruiter used the name "Total Esl" but when the contract was emailed to me it was suddenly China ESL. If I had this form letter I would not have gotten stung because the money amounts would have been different as well as the name and there is no SAIC license issued to any "Total ESL" which is just one of many aliases used by their gang of bandits.


So your idea is that the people who are too dumb to look up basic information on what visa they need to work legally in China, despite the very misleading name it's given...'Work Visa', are going to send out this silly form, which I guarantee will cost them a lot of jobs from reputable employers who find it insulting and/or a waste of time, and then once they have this information that same idiot who can't be bothered to do basic research is going to access the SAIC database and check out potential employers?

How can you make up a fake website?

Easy...ask the CFTU and their half a dozen sister sites that were set up with the sole purpose of linking back to the main site to make it appear legitimate, they also do this by setting up free blogs on various sites and then link back to said sites, also to make them appear like it's not run by one crazy con artist.

Fake address?

Your really going to contact the Chinese leasing office? Wouldn't it be more prudent to just exercise common sense in the first place? Please. How on Earth would someone looking for a first time job in China possibly have the resources to look up the contact information for a leasing office in the area they are looking for a job in and be able to communicate with the staff on any level whatsoever.

you, can you explain why you believe the CFTU is a con or conspiracy? I have heard this before but i'm a newbie so some of their information seems to benefit me. I have heard they are a benevolent volunteer organization and on the flipside, Ive heard that its a hoax run solely by one person, possibly chinese. whats the benefit if its a con? seems they only educate efl teachers.
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Bud Powell



Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1470

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you, can you explain why you believe the CFTU is a con or conspiracy? I have heard this before but i'm a newbie so some of their information seems to benefit me. I have heard they are a benevolent volunteer organization and on the flipside, Ive heard that its a hoax run solely by one person, possibly chinese. whats the benefit if its a con? seems they only educate efl teachers.

Do a search on CFTU. This topic has been riffed on for months.

There's no need to beat a dead horse. Case closed.
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Alien abductee



Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yb713 wrote:
you, can you explain why you believe the CFTU is a con or conspiracy? I have heard this before but i'm a newbie so some of their information seems to benefit me. I have heard they are a benevolent volunteer organization and on the flipside, Ive heard that its a hoax run solely by one person, possibly chinese. whats the benefit if its a con? seems they only educate efl teachers.

I emailed the CFTU once asking for info. A few other forum members did as well. As expected, there was no reply. Like Bud said, case closed.
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Juice



Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alien abductee wrote:
yb713 wrote:
you, can you explain why you believe the CFTU is a con or conspiracy? I have heard this before but i'm a newbie so some of their information seems to benefit me. I have heard they are a benevolent volunteer organization and on the flipside, Ive heard that its a hoax run solely by one person, possibly chinese. whats the benefit if its a con? seems they only educate efl teachers.

I emailed the CFTU once asking for info. A few other forum members did as well. As expected, there was no reply. Like Bud said, case closed.


I wrote three emails to the CFTU and they answered me every time although the first time was an auto-reply message. They gave me a lot of free stuff mentioned here, but unfortunately the timing was too late for me, just like finding Dave's too late.

http://www.bjstuff.com/forum/topics/15-free-anti-scam-weapons-for-expat-china-foreign-teachers-from

Sometimes I think the people who trash them are doing recruiting work on the side or maybe even full time.

http://www.eslbase.com/forum/viewtopic/t-3125

Without any doubt they are anti-agent (me too) so with a thousand or so agents competing for teachers, they are not good for business and probably make more enemies than friends.

I was invited to go to a few events like this one here but was consumed with my visa issues at the time.

http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/activities/cftu-sponsors-cross-cultural-training-seminar-for-new-china-foreign-expat-teachers/

Whether you like them or hate them I would not join any group that protests anything in China (they protest low wages and unpaid overtime), but you can get useful information from them without being pressured to buy anything or being spammed.
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SH_Panda



Joined: 31 May 2011
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Juice wrote:
Alien abductee wrote:
yb713 wrote:
you, can you explain why you believe the CFTU is a con or conspiracy? I have heard this before but i'm a newbie so some of their information seems to benefit me. I have heard they are a benevolent volunteer organization and on the flipside, Ive heard that its a hoax run solely by one person, possibly chinese. whats the benefit if its a con? seems they only educate efl teachers.

I emailed the CFTU once asking for info. A few other forum members did as well. As expected, there was no reply. Like Bud said, case closed.


I wrote three emails to the CFTU and they answered me every time although the first time was an auto-reply message. They gave me a lot of free stuff mentioned here, but unfortunately the timing was too late for me, just like finding Dave's too late.

http://www.bjstuff.com/forum/topics/15-free-anti-scam-weapons-for-expat-china-foreign-teachers-from

Sometimes I think the people who trash them are doing recruiting work on the side or maybe even full time.

http://www.eslbase.com/forum/viewtopic/t-3125

Without any doubt they are anti-agent (me too) so with a thousand or so agents competing for teachers, they are not good for business and probably make more enemies than friends.

I was invited to go to a few events like this one here but was consumed with my visa issues at the time.

http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/activities/cftu-sponsors-cross-cultural-training-seminar-for-new-china-foreign-expat-teachers/

Whether you like them or hate them I would not join any group that protests anything in China (they protest low wages and unpaid overtime), but you can get useful information from them without being pressured to buy anything or being spammed.


Why are you saying 'them'?

You are 'them'.

Rolling Eyes

If you are going to create several identities to try and promote this weird fake teachers' union, then at least try to change the posting style between the various accounts. I moderate a couple of other forums and by now I'm pretty good at spotting a posting style I've seen before. Not that you need to be good at it, because yours is always the same and it's blatantly obvious.

You're clearly an extremely odd individual to want to set up this 'union' and keep the facade going all this time by putting so much effort in. I don't see how it can be making you any money, so...

Unless you are getting protection money from agents so you won't add them to your blacklist? Hmm.. Confused
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