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NO DEGREE? NO TEACHING CERT? STAY HOME!!
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ESL Guru



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:19 am    Post subject: NO DEGREE? NO TEACHING CERT? STAY HOME!! Reply with quote

There are two schools of thought and I will express my position, knowing full well that Roger and others hotly disagree.

Very simply, if you are a high school graduate looking for travel and a good time in China and think that teaching ESL is a way to finance your working vacation, STAY HOME!

China has enough ESL teachers who know absolutely nothing about pedogogy or methodology. Enough party animals. Enough backpackers. No - I am wrong - there are far too many already.

They make it hard for the committed ESL teachers to demand respect and just make a very bad impression of what their native land is like.

If you do not have a BA , B Ed or BS degree in something meaningful or a teaching certification, stay out of China. End up at my school and you will truly wish you had taken my advice.
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rogan



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Posts: 416
Location: at home, in France

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, with eslguru (as far as this subject is concerned)

Europe doesn't need people like this either !
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grahamb



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1441

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:37 pm    Post subject: TEFL tourists Reply with quote

Agreed. Having said that, I'm alarmed by the number of people who appear to have got their TEFL qualification free with a packet of corn flakes. I met a girl who didn't know the difference between an idiom and a proverb, and she was a thirtysomething graduate.
There would be fewer TEFL tourists if there were fewer cowboys operators.
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Sherri



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 748
Location: The Big Island, Hawaii

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: NO DEGREE? NO TEACHING CERT? STAY HOME!! Reply with quote

ESL Guru wrote:

If you do not have a BA , B Ed or BS degree in something meaningful or a teaching certification, stay out of China. End up at my school and you will truly wish you had taken my advice.


Basically I agree. One question though, why are you working at a school that hires unqualified teachers?
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ESL Guru



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sherri -

My school does its best to check out claimed credentials but this is China. Sometimes one slips by the admins but we teachers figure it out pretty quickly and then there is real trouble.
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Wolf



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 1:47 pm    Post subject: There is a point to be had. Reply with quote

ESL sounds bitter. Backpackers are bad for him. They are all to often - so I gather - bad for China - at least when they try to teach English. By all means go see Yunan it's supposed to be beautiful.

Note that you'll aslo be doing yourself a favor. Read the China forum. Do you really want to do a job like that with no qualifications, experience, or preparations at all? And unable to pull yourself up and get a better position? Maybe you'll love teaching - and maybe you won't. At the very least do a CELTA course to see what theaching is about.

I know that there are/have been good teachers with no degree/"pieces of paper", but it's like playing Russian roulette with five bullets in the gun and only one empty chamber. A real risk. And if it falls through - or you tire of it (most EFL teahers in Asia go home after just a couple of years - or at least that's what I keep hearing) what will you do afterwards?

My purpose is not to scare off potentially good teachers. But take a look at what you're doing if you want to come to China with a GED (or similar).
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cheryl



Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First and foremost, I am by no means knocking the JET programme...BUT
I can't belive that they would accept people who have no experience in teaching nor a relative degree, and reject people who do. I understand that JET is a programme for cultural exchanges but please, we're still "teaching" even if it's simply for conversational purposes.


Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.
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Glenski



Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't belive that they would accept people who have no experience in teaching


Snipped directly from the JET program web site, FAQ number 1.

Is experience as a teacher necessary for the ALT position?

No; however, an interest in teaching is necessary. Teaching experience is but one skill among many that is considered when you apply for the JET Programme.
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cheryl



Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reiteration or confirmation Glenski?

Quote:
Quote:I can't belive that they would accept people who have no experience in teaching

Snipped directly from the JET program web site, FAQ number 1.

Is experience as a teacher necessary for the ALT position?

No; however, an interest in teaching is necessary. Teaching experience is but one skill among many that is considered when you apply for the JET Programme.


Just in case I'm misinterpreting your reasons for this post, I need to add that I said I can't believe it like people say, "it's a shame". I know it happens, and I know it will continue to happen, doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
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ESL Guru



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are teaching but don't know how, what are they teaching?

China is not one big baby teething ring where newbies can cut their first teaching teeth! The students in China are entitled to better than that.

Just imagine, born in China! Just one of 1.3 billion. Everyone struggling to survive.

Learning English is perceived to be the economic key to personal growth and economic prosperity, the way out of dismal poverty.

Along comes this teeny bopping high school grad who is going to teach you English. First question: Which of the 7 standard Englishes or 35 regional Englishes will you teach? Oh! You did not know about this? You were just gonna let em know how ya'all talk back home?

Second question: What pedogogy will you follow? Ok I will wait while you look up pedogogy in your dictionary. What? You do not have a dictionary? Thought you claimed to want to teach English but you are gonna JUST DO IT without a dictionary?

Third question: What methodology will you use? Oh, you thought your employer would handle all of this for you? And exactly why do you think they give you the title "foreign expert"?

Fourth question: What teaching materials will you bring with you? Your scout knife? OK!


WOLF - I am not bitter about anything!!! I am scared to death that my child may end up in some happy camper's class where he will learn nothing or even worse, bad language that will fossilize and he will become untrainable and uncorrectable. His English based future completely destroyed by some space cadet high school grad who just had to come to China to "teach English"?

There is an 18 year old Russian lad with no degree who "speaks" English as a second language posing as a 21 year old American currently teaching "Ruslish" (or is that rubbish) in Shanghai at a major private school. Maybe you would like your child's future ruined by him?

Wake up people! China needs real teachers who can provide real assisatnce to a very needy people. These people need and deserve better!! Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
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cheryl



Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Posts: 119
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Along comes this teeny bopping high school grad who is going to teach you English. First question: Which of the 7 standard Englishes or 35 regional Englishes will you teach? Oh! You did not know about this? You were just gonna let em know how ya'all talk back home?


What teacher thinks, "Hey, I've grown up in Toronto but now live in Ottawa. I'm going to teach these students the Ottawa valley dialect this year!". Who cares? I thought that fluency and/or proficiency (I realize those terms are subjective and thus am using them laxly) was more important that minor dialectal differences.

Quote:
Third question: What methodology will you use? Oh, you thought your employer would handle all of this for you? And exactly why do you think they give you the title "foreign expert"?


There aren't THAT may different methods for teaching ES/FL. You make it sound as if the regular Joe Smoe can't open a piece of text to find out which suits them better. Besides, why would a teacher have to go into a school and decide which method to use for teaching? Don't schools have curriculums with a school based methodology already set up? Is the method of teaching in each English class dependant souly on the teacher?


Quote:
I am not bitter about anything!!! I am scared to death that my child may end up in some happy camper's class where he will learn nothing or even worse, bad language that will fossilize and he will become untrainable and uncorrectable.


I realize I'm being really picky here but....for heaven's sake theorists still don't know exactly why language learners fossilize nor if learners can get past it so why are you typing as though what you're saying is truth?

I may be a newbie with less than 100 hrs teaching experience no overseas experience either, but at least I'm versed in methodolgy and theory! Smile

I did agree partially with your original post but my gosh, Wolf was right, you sound really bitter.
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rob456



Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 11:16 pm    Post subject: ? Reply with quote

why are you all so bitter?
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ESL Guru



Joined: 18 May 2003
Posts: 462

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Wolf and Carol -

In psychology, what you are doing is called projecting. Look it up.
Then have a go at psycholinguistics.

To Wolf -

The remainder of your post was very good.

To: Carol -

The remainder of your post shows a depth of ignirance that is astounding, based upon your credentials.

Each of the propositions I stated is supported by current state of the art linguistic research and is contained in peer reviewed Class "A" linguistic journals.

As for your assertions, well, they are the product of lay ignorance. You really should read up on the subject if you intend to continue ESL teaching.

And Carol, this is not a flame, just good advice.
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 3:18 am    Post subject: Yeah,Guru,and Rogan,I Agree Reply with quote

This is the old qualified-versus- unqualified argument,fought out many times on this board and elsewhere. Personally, I agree with Guru. If people have no qualifications, they should stay home and get some(if they are really interested in teaching,that is).Of course, some(well,a lot, probably) of people are not really interested in teaching at all,but use it as a convenient excuse for farting around overseas.And Rogan is certainly right, there are people like that in Europe and everywhere there are TESOL teachers.It is an unregulated industry.
After saying that, I do not think it is going to change,People who are only interested in farting around will continue to come overseas to "teach". Rolling Eyes
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khmerhit



Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Rob--- why so apparently bitter?

There was a time when North America suffered from a dearth of qualified teachers, and teens were drafted to instruct pupils only a few years younger than themselves. Why are you so uptight about so-called backpacker teachers? So what if some of them don't stick around or most of them are beginners etc - - i cant recall all your objections. People have to start somewhere, and not everyone knows that they want to teach, or whether they are capable of teaching. Students do not usually care for these distinctions in any case; they want to see someone who will inspire them, and some of these 'amateurs' you are generalizing about do an excellent job. Who gives a toss if they dont know all the types of English?

Moreover, the standard educational level of your average Westerner is higher than your average student in the Orient. The basic state schools are better, the level of general knowledge is higher, and the press is unfettered by comparison. Parenting skills are also better among Westerners than among the children of the cultural revolution and the Indochinese wars. Or hadn't you noticed? This is a significant problem in Cambodia, and I suspect Vietnam too. The one thing they may outstrip us at (a general comparison, this) is the motivation to learn.

By the way, there is no such thing as a properly regulated industry-- not even the airline industry is 'regulated'. There is supply (to which you have raised so many rather futile objections regarding quality) and there is demand. Having said all this, agree that newbies should get their certs and their first degrees. here endeth the lesson Smile
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