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PanamaTeacher



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 278
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda (which means pretty in espanol)--people have schools to make money, teachers are tools, and those that hang around too long out of a misguided sense of gratitude become fools.

How much are they paying you; are you earning a competitive salary? Cuidate muchacha--Language school owners are sharp operators.

By the way, I know that you have been there two years. How many of your students speak english fluently now?
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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2003 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PanamaTeacher,

You've brought up a very real, sad reality. Too many people who run "schools" these days are in it for the $$.
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Linda L.



Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who are you calling a fool? What kind of a person are you? On another thread you called me a "w-h-o-r-e."

Back off buster!

Of course private schools are in business to make money. Of course teachers are tools of commerce. Did you just wake up to this reality?

I am paid to do a job. I talk with Chinese students and create a friendly environment for them to produce their own English. I am also advertising bait to attract new students whose parents pay money that pays my salary, and oh yes, a profit to my employer who would not be in business otherwise.

Students in our 6 month program are able to converse in a comprehensible manner before they leave the program. Not Chinglish or slang. Just basic English. Many can speak better English than older kids back home in West Virginia.

My salary is the same as a "teacher" with a B.A. They wonder why they went to all the expense and trouble.

I am nobody's fool! I am making a good living and I do not have to take strange objects in painful places just so momma can earn a living.

I am no "w-h-o-r-e" and I am nobody's "f-o-o-l" and you are no gentleman!
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 1:36 am    Post subject: What an Attitude! Reply with quote

I felt a bit sorry for her at first,but now I am thinking"What an attitude!" Just what we need...more "teachers' in this business who are "instant experts"...because they have taken some funky online cert course.
I looked over the posts...I do not see anywhere that PT called her that "W" word.And if she thinks teaching in China is such a nice,comfy sinecure,I can guarantee you that she does not know much about the TESOL business.
As for PT being a gentleman,well who knows?It is difficult to tell from posts.Someone who does not like to be called names responds by calling other posters names.
Are you REALLY happy in China?Still,best wishes to you.I still suggest you look at non-TESOl options for the future.Your business ,of course.But when you post on a forum like this, you might get responses you do not necessarily agree with...it is called free speech.
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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda,

Quote:
those that hang around too long out of a misguided sense of gratitude become fools.


Ok.

Um.

Embarassed

PT said "those". I know the diction that was used may have resembled a veiled insult, but I don't think PT meant to attack YOU specifically.

And I'm going to jump in directly re the $$ issue, bc I mentioned it after PT did. I felt kind of "co-insulted". (If that wasn't a word before, it is now. Wink )

NOBODY is saying that there's anything bad about doing something to make $$$. That's why EVERYONE wants a job. To earn $$ to survive.

HOWEVER

there IS something very, very wrong with people who are in the ESL business to exploit teachers and students. These are the types of people I was referring to, and I see ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with indicating that ESL teachers need to be wary of those with nefarious motives.

Bottom line: People in this business DO have to be careful about being used. What's wrong with saying so?

Rolling Eyes
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bnix



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 1:55 am    Post subject: C76 Is Right Reply with quote

I agree with C76.People in this business...have to be careful about being used.Bluntly...you BETTER cover your own a--. People who are not careful about being used....wind up being used.It is often a cuthtroat,dog eat dog business.
Those are just the facts of the matter.Anyone who takes these facts as a personal insult is being unrealistic and has not been in this business long enough to really know the score.You BETTER watch out for yourself out there(and I include all TESOL teachers in this admonition,including myself).

Too many people go into this "business" as a last rersort,or so they think. Rolling Eyes
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda,
in your 'limited own experience' China hires expats 'not as teachers but ...so Chinese have more exposure to the language'.
To some extent, this is true - UNFORTUNATELY. This gives job opportunities to undereducated, untrained travellers who are too poor to pay for a tourist-class plane ticket to a Third-World country and back home.
You are right because some Chinese principals actually tell you that "the more our students speak the more fluent they become". IS that what we or they need? I do not think so!
I do think CHina NEEDS, BADLY NEEDS genuine teachers from the outside who can give this country a new perspective on what teaching and learning are all about!
It certainly isn't just for a whole gaggle of 50 kids to mimick that fool in front of them, or to robotically repeat every word and sentence he or she utters. That is the old-fashioned Chinese idea, and that is why English is in such a deplorable state in this country!
The kids ought to learn to think before they memorise their maths, history, Chinese characters and even English! The whole education in this country is nothing but a facade. If their leaders decide New York is the capital of Tibet, every Chinese will teach you that New YOrk is in Chinese-Tibet. Telln a Chinese what you think, and they ask CHINA DAILY or the official from the PC at the school what the truth is, and that's what they are going to believe, not your story.
So long as Chinese choreograph all their education to suit political ends, there is going to be a stiff price to be paid by everyone - the kids are demotivated (who likes to go to school and obediently devour 'facts' and data that no one is really interested in?). Demotivated learners do not care about a foreign tongue. We owe our jobs to the fact that they have to obey and attend English class. Because the whole country is "learning" English the performance is low as they have to accommodate the lowest common denominator.
And people like you believe they are doing a useful job just being there to "create a friendly atmosphere" and "practise basic English"? You are fooling yourself!

This craze will fade away eventually, the sooner China becomes a major economic power the sooner they will abandon this costly and uneconomic exercise of hiring native speakers with such a low professional profile as you! They will want to get the best for their money, and perhaps some CHinese can produce better results than expat oral English teachers can!
Because acquiring a language means more than merely making English or simili-English sounds - it is about thinking like an English speaker, and that cannot be trained by doing conversation class with primary school kids.
Thank you, comrade Linda, but your service will not be retained for many years to come!
We need dedicated teachers who introduce more scientific teaching methods to Chinese English teachers so that they can do their jobs better - as well as those non-native English teachers the world over that never get seconded by native English speakers!
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khmerhit



Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a chill pill, dude-- as we used to say in the land of Sambaguita. Youre heading for an ulcer. Smile
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PanamaTeacher



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 278
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda I may not seem to be a gentleman, but I do try to respect you and all my other colleagues.

You asked 3 questions; here are my answers:

Who are you calling a fool?--Nobody.

What kind of a person are you?-- Realistic.

On another thread you called me a "w-h-o-r-e."-- Not true.

Linda--I apologize for making you think I was not feeling positive about you. I admire what you have done with your life. If more people were like you, the world would be better. I also apologize for those who abused and exploited you when you were an adolescent.

I, however, do not apologize for trying to warn you that you may be (or become) the victim of exploitation again (not physical, however).

I don't apologize for telling you to keep striving and to keep growing both as a person and a professional.

I don't apologize for sensing that you needed friendly advice and responding as best I could.

Lastly, I don't apologize for hoping that you understand that no one here on this forum gains from hurting you; anything said is to help, even if it is painful for you to accept.

I hope you take what I say in the spirit in which I intend it: if I had a daughter in your situation I would pray that someone would take her aside and tell her "Be Careful!"

I hope that I'm wrong and all is as you've depicted it. Feel free to contact me if I can ever help you in any way.

Your well-intentioned friend in Panama

P.S. Good Luck
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Linda L.



Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In another thread PT said I was probably being "pimped." If I am being "pimped" then I am being called a "w-h-o-r-e." Before I posted any reply PT sent me a PM suggesting I not get angry with him. He knew full well what his post meant and he sent me his little patronising PM. I may not have a college degree like you all do but I know when I am being called a "w-h-o-r-e." Maybe I am street wise and understand English a little better than some highly educated types.

And exactly what is wrong with my attitude? I never claimed to be an "expert" in anything. I have stated my lack of expertise, repeatedly.
I just do the job I am paid to do as best I can and my current employer is satisfied. What is so wrong with that?

All exploitation is bad! I agree. Momma exploited me for years and I am not bitter. I have moved on and I am doing as well as my limitations allow.

Roger I am shocked by your attitude here and in the general discussion thread about prostitution. I answered a job post. I was hired to do a particular job. I do that job. I get paid to do that job. What right do you have to try and lay all of China's political, social and educational problems at my feet? And why do you insult me by calling me "comrade"? I am just a small person trying to make my own independent way in life with my small brain instead of my body. You attack and insult me for no good reason. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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PanamaTeacher



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 278
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda writes:

Quote:
I have read this thread from beginning to end. I am surprised by the neanderthal thinking expressed by so many who apparently lack first hand knowledge.

Prostitution in any form, legal or illegal, is horrible. It is dehumanising and that is all there is to it!

Right after I finished my first period at age 13, my momma got out the silk linnen, dressed me in a fancy nighty and sat me on the bed. In came momma's then current "boyfriend." He unzipped his pants I I saw a man for the first time. Momma told me to open my mouth and what a surprise I got. When he exploded I almost choked to death. After he left I puked my guts out all over the floor. My momma beat me and told me to learn to like it.

During the next week momma brought two or three men to me for the same thing every night.

One week later momma brought a very big man to me but this time momma took off my panties. He hurt me badly. I had to do things no person should ever have to do, never!

This went on until I was 19. Momma made a lot of money and I never got anything but three sqaures and a roof.

I never got used to any of the perversions and now I do not like any kind of sex other than gentle loving same gender partner contact. I will never marry because just the thought of another man touching me is revolting.

Anyone who thinks any kind of prostitution is good or a great social service has never been there or done that!


I respond:

Linda I again apologize for the misunderstanding. Pimp is a word with several interpretations. I put
Quote:
exploited
in parentheses next to the word so that my meaning would be clear. Let's look at our exchange to see if my meaning is clear. I wrote:

Quote:
Linda--Your story is refreshing and heartwarming. It makes me feel great to know that there is a place for anyone in this big old world of ESL. You've made a great start; what are your plans for continued professional growth? Or do you plan to ride your GED all the way to the top. I hate to say this Linda, but you are probably being pimped in China (exploited). Consolidate your gains and move on girlfriend. Trust me on this one.

After reviewing it, you said:

Quote:
Men paid my momma good money for the right to call me "w-h-o-r-e." You have not paid me or my momma so you do not have that right.

So what if I am being "pimped" in China? At least I get to keep the money instead of my momma.

If you agree that you are being "pimped" in China, then you must have understood the term precisely as I meant it, as exploited.

So, I think that you do understand that I was not calling you anything other than a possibly naive young girl who may be getting used by others. Now it seems that you are a naive young girl who thinks that she has the upper-hand in her job, while understanding that she is being exploited. I can accept that; we often don't see our mistakes until it is too late.

Anyway Linda, I think we can put this behind us and move forward in a positive way. I don't think accusing me of something you know was not my intention is the best way to use this forum.

It seems that you have a lot to contribute and a unique point of view. I happen to think you are misguided and will say so whenever I feel like it. I will do so to help you see your mistakes and to prevent other people from acting based upon your advice without thinking it over carefully. Who knows maybe a few years from now you will see that I am indeed trying to help.

Adios


Last edited by PanamaTeacher on Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda,

IMO (That's "in my opinion" by the way...And I explained that acronym, not to patronize you. Rather, YOU'RE MAKING IT VERY CLEAR on this board that when someone is talking to you, they have to cover their you-know-what. Rolling Eyes Evil or Very Mad ):

I know what you are saying by indicating that "pimped" means "w-h-o-r-e". But in terms of slang, it also refers to one who is being EXPLOITED. Plain and simple. Rolling Eyes Sexual innuendo IS NOT necessarily required.

Let's look at another instance of a word with an alternate meaning: In an earlier post, I referred to ESL teaching as being "dead" rewarding. Yes, the word "dead" means dead, as in not living. However, in British slang, it also means very or extremely.

I'm sure every ESL teacher knows that we have to explain to students all the time that one word can have many connotations. Hence, on one hand, I can see how you might be offended by the word "pimped". On the other, take it easy. Rolling Eyes

I don't care too much for your defensive/hostile attitude. If you think people on this board are trying to judge you or take advantage because of their educational background....That's YOUR opinion.

And if anyone actually does give you attitude, just ignore 'em.

I, for one, don't think a degree makes one person better than another.

It's interesting that you seem to have trouble with people who insist on telling the truth about the darker side of working in ESL. It's also very telling.
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guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linda,
Few people get someone like Panama Teacher to offer their advice and support. He's doesn't seem like he's trying to hurt you or insult you. It might be wise to establish better communication with him and to not be so defensive.
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PanamaTeacher



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 278
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey C76
I know--Fugees, Hatian thing.
What I like about you is your positive attitude and good personality. I do however assume that there are things you have in common with Ms. Hill, right?
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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2003 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PanamaTeacher wrote:
Hey C76
I know--Fugees, Hatian thing.
What I like about you is your positive attitude and good personality. I do however assume that there are things you have in common with Ms. Hill, right?


Physically? Yes. I picked Lauryn because if I had to choose a celeb who even remotely resembled me, it'd be her.

Mind you, I have glasses, etc.

Behavior-wise? She seems like a sensible woman. That's what I strive for as well.

I put that sig in my profile bc I've gotten more than one p-message along the lines of "OMG! Is that you?!" Razz
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