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Tell me, PLEASE...
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It is wise to suggest that newbies need to be certified.
Yes
87%
 87%  [ 28 ]
No
6%
 6%  [ 2 ]
WHAT? Who the heck do you think you are?!
6%
 6%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 32

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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:39 pm    Post subject: Tell me, PLEASE... Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes Is there something WRONG with suggesting that TESL training might be a good idea? I’m not talking about being rude and trying to degrade individuals who don’t have any.... I’m talking about just saying that it can’t hurt. (Which is something that I think we've all been doing.)

Excuse the following mini rant. However, I’ve noticed a trend.

People have been very petulant lately. I’ve seen a lot of posts with sentiments like… “How DARE YOU say that I might want/need a certificate?” I’ve seen other posts that give the impression that the writers are thinking, “What?! WHAT DO YOU MEAN teaching isn’t supposed to be ONE BIG PARTY? Who the BLEEP are you to spoil my immaculate dreams?!” Shocked Rolling Eyes And somehow, a person who tries to give newbies like me sensible advice without any BS is touted as crazy…Or they’re someone who, surely Rolling Eyes , must be having a “hard time”…(God bless you, Capergirl)…Or, the advisor is supposedly--as in the case of our beloved PanamaTeacher--some kind of pervert.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM with telling someone that if s/he can go for formal training, s/he should? Mad I’ve asked that question more than once on this bboard. So far, I have not been given an answer, sensible or otherwise.

Some people believe “I am fluent in English. Therefore, I can teach English.”

I say yes… and no. With heavy emphasis on the “no”. Especially if you go into the field with too much arrogance.

Yes, I think ESL teaching is cool, blah, blah, blah. But I also know that it’s serious work.

For those who think I’m nuts for not understanding your logic…I have a question:

Think back to when you were little and you wanted to play outside. When your mom or dad told you to look both ways before crossing the street, were you mad at them?

Wait. Don’t answer that.

Here’s a better question using the same example: Do you resent your folks to this day because of their “interference”?

As a sub-topic, if you won’t or can’t go to school for a cert…

Maybe we should start a resource list?

Teaching American English Pronunciation by Peter Avery and Susan Ehrlich is a fairly useful book.


Last edited by C76 on Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PanamaTeacher



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 278
Location: Panama

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C--I think it is absolutely correct to recommend anything you think is appropriate. I think where I have made a mistake is assuming that people will: 1) take my advice and/or 2)appreciate my advise. I think it's like teaching. A lot of kids don't like to be taught, but you have to plug away at it cause in your heart you know you are doing the right thing. And don't forget that people who participate regularly can see your good intentions/advice. Keep it up and don't let the wannabes get you down. Smile

Best resource I know: Dave's Esl Cafe. Smile
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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, if people don't like other people's advice, there are intelligent ways of saying so. Without resorting to talk of dildos and other issues which are none of our business.

I've read a lot of tantrums over the past week or so. Guess it was time for me to have one of my own.

And I wasn't kidding when I set up the poll at the start of this thread. I am genuinely curious. People are getting offended...I have no idea why.
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Sandgropers



Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately or fortunately (whichever way you look at it) the people who participate in these forums are no different from those in other walks of life. People often ask questions but they have already made up their minds as to what answer they want to hear! Heaven forbid that they should not receive their desired reply! When that happens they can respond in a belligerent manner Rolling Eyes The bottom line is that people like that only ever learn by making their own mistakes and not always then!
'You can't please all the people all the time'.
Cheers
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Guest






PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can lead a horse to water....... just try not to take it too personally if it kicks you when you arrive at the water.
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a little unique to the English-speaking scene. Mother tongue English speakers assume that anyone who was born into an English-speaking society CAN teach his or her lingo. This is hogwash, really! You can teach a baby (who has no choice but to adopt your language), but you can't automatically teach anyone and everyone. Try and teach your classmates some grammar!
Just thought: The term 'native English speaker" is, perhaps, a misnomer! "Native" is cognate with 'nation' and 'nee' (French, 'born'); it derives from Latin 'nativus', 'born'. If you suppose you are born an English speaker you are wrong; you are made an English speaker by your mother (hence 'mother tongue').
Just because you like your mother's apple pie better than anyone else's doesn't mean anyone else's is not potentially better than your homemade ones! Your mother does not automatically speak better English than others - therefore perfecting your English communication skills and learning how to teach these skills to others might be a profitable idea!
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Debalky



Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 79
Location: hell on earth

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger my man,
Making yourself a better person by studying anything is always a great idea, i agree. However, is it realistic for people to think that every position in the esl word (I'm sure there are thousands of school who need teachers) can be filled by people holding degrees and Cert courses?
Almost every friend i had in University talked about going overseas to teach , but i'm the only one that actually did it. They are off making "the big cash", or travelling the world after working for 6 months in a government job.
The need for English teachers in the world is huge, and that's why some schools will hire anyone who speaks the language. So for the people who, say that "No degree, No Cert, Stay Home" you are denying these Countries a service that they really want and need.
I think there are very few people like Bertrand in the world who grace these countries with their advanced IQ and brilliance.
These places are "beggars" when it comes to finding English instructors, finish the cliche by yourselves.
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lajzar



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Location: Saitama-ken, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly there are many places that want teachers, more than can be provided by the certified ones alone. But that is the same with every profession - demand eceeds supply. Why shouldn't we help to create some kind of minimum standard?

Besides, it has to be said that a lot of those schools that accept people without a ctefl or equivalent are in countries that have an economy that could easily afford to pay a premium for people with the qualification.
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Debalky



Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 79
Location: hell on earth

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that we are here to do the job that is asked of us. The minimum standard is up to the individual country to decide.
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dorum



Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 35
Location: China

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think that, if people are going to post on this forum (or any other forums for foreign teachers), they have to be prepared for different responses from different people - they (and we) shouldn't get 'huffy' about the difference in opinion.
But then again, it's fun to flame.... Wink
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lajzar



Joined: 09 Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Location: Saitama-ken, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those who are trying to create a minum standard are akin to medieval guilds in that respect. In medieval times, it was traditionally up to teh customers (ie country) to set a standard, and quality was extremely variable as you might expect. Along comes a guild, and makes all people in teh trade have a minimum capability/qualification. It means that any customer can know what he is getting as a minimum.

The is teh argument that we do it for selfish reasons, to keep teh riffraff out and thus improve teh odds of us getting job X. It is for selfish reasons, but not quite that simple. By increasing teh basal standard, efl teachers will all benefit from having a better overall reputation, and thuis being able to get a better wage. As it stands, we are ALL tarred by the backpacker brush, which depresses all our wages.
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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dorum wrote:
I just think that, if people are going to post on this forum (or any other forums for foreign teachers), they have to be prepared for different responses from different people - they (and we) shouldn't get 'huffy' about the difference in opinion.
But then again, it's fun to flame.... Wink


Laughing

Oh my gosh.

Know what? I just realized I've been getting snarky about other people's snarkiness.

It's just...certain folks have been getting downright nasty recently. I've been pretty surprised by it all. I never knew that advice could be so offensive.

I should now point out that I will understand if the moderators come by and tell me off--or close this thread. (I'm concerned. Embarassed I do not want to contribute to the recent degradation of Dave's bboards.)

However, we could be on the verge of developing an interesting discussion regarding the relevance of certification in contemporary ESL teaching.

And another thing....A few days ago a relative of mine asked if ESL teachers had a union. Shocked I thought it was an interesting question.
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dyak



Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 630

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have another theory, it's a little pretentious but I think a little pretention is good once in a while...

I think the problem is that people form absurd attachments to their own opinions, hence the 'hurt my opinion - hurt me' and the 'I am my own opinion' scenarios.

So if this is just an opinion, and NOT me, it therefore seems absurd to take anyone's reaction personally... but hey, I could be full of s***.

Cheers
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guest of Japan



Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The worst vice is advice." Al Pacino, "The Devil's Advocate"
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C76



Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 113
Location: somewhere between beauty and truth...in Toronto. ;)

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dyak wrote:

So if this is just an opinion, and NOT me, it therefore seems absurd to take anyone's reaction personally... but hey, I could be full of s***.

Cheers


No way, dyak. It's sensible advice. I plan on treading carefully and not waste time getting p-o'ed over any Troll's opinions. In doing otherwise, I'm basically stooping to their level.
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