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teach in Russia
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rogan



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Posts: 416
Location: at home, in France

PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:14 pm    Post subject: teach in Russia Reply with quote

I have beeb offered 2 very interesting teaching posts in Russia and for personal reasons I can't accept them.

One is in Moscow starting early September.
The other is in the South of Russia starting 17 August.

If any one is interested they could contact me for details.

But bear in mind that, I, like scot47, have a list of people that I would never employ.

I'm not here very often these days - too many newbies who ask for advice and then reject it - so contact at rogandeep@lemel.fr
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Kira



Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:45 am    Post subject: Jobs in Samara/Siberia Reply with quote

I also have been offerred two jobs, both in Samara, both slight twists on teaching English, and both for people with whom I have an existing relationship. I have elected not to accept them due to other job possibilities.

I also have an offer on hand for Siberia, not one of the larger cities.

If you're interested, write me a personal note on Dave's and I'll get back to you.

--Kira
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maruss



Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 979
Location: Cyprus

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:31 am    Post subject: Siberia? Reply with quote

Just out of interest Kira-which place in Siberia are you referring to?I know that apart from the obvious climate problems in winter,it's not a place to make money,especially as a lot of products have to ne imported and consequently prices are high!
M.
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Communist Smurf



Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've recently come across a couple of cookies and a glass of milk but, for personal reasons, can't eat them. One of them is peanutbutter fudge and the other has pecan nuts. The milk is skim (sorry, it's the best I could do).

If anyone is interested I could scan a copy of them or maybe even take a picture with my digital camera. They smell kinda good. Just email me for details.

However, I keep a list of people I won't share them with. This list on a little yellow sticky I keep posted on the top of my computer. I periodically look at it from time to time and get angry at the people on this aforementioned list. I'm less willing to share them with grumpy people that can't take a joke. So this isn't on a first-come first-serve basis.

Yours truely,
C. Smurf
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bgor



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 16
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Communist Smurf,

Humour, and especially sarcasm, and I assume that is what you were attempting in your post, does not come across very well in print. Without the tone of voice and the smile (?) on your face, it is impossible to know just how serious you mean your comments to be.

You are taking a shot at Rogan being honest enough to say that he doesn't recommend people he doesn't feel comfortable recommending. Would you pass along jobs to people you didn't trust or respect? What fool would, knowing this person is probably going to contact the employer and say something like, "So-and-so gave me your information..." which comes across as somewhat of an endorsement. If you then turn out to be a bad hire, it reflects on Rogan (or Kira, or whoever).

Given some of your posts, I would certainly not feel comfortable giving you employment information. Your reaction to rejection would probably be a sarcastic, denigrating response, an attempt to make the employer and perhaps me look and feel bad. And if you were hired and things didn't go well...oi vey. Rolling Eyes I wouldn't want to be the employer dealing with that attitude.

The job forum is not the place for you to tell others how you believe they should think and act. That's what the classroom is for. Shocked (That last sentence was intended as highly sarcastic, and is why I would not pass along employment information to you - because you would probably be sarcastic and denigrating to students. )

All the best...Brian Evil or Very Mad
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Communist Smurf



Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll concede that no one here has any basis for recommending me and based on my response to (not rejection) passive/aggressive cheap shots with an attempt to "bully" me, or better phrased "put into my place," by older and more experienced members here, doesn't show a lot of maturity on my part and is a solid basis for deciding not to recommend me.

I'll point out that in no way do I feel rejected. I'm throughly convinced that Rogan intentionally used this "helpful announcement" of job openings to throw around his proverbial weight as a seasoned traveler of the area and concurrently mentioning that certain people will not be recommended. If his post had come at a different time, I would say he either never would have made it, or he never would have mentioned that there's a black list of people he wouldn't help. It should be taken for granted that certain people won't be recommended.

"The job forum is not the place for you to tell others how you believe they should think and act. "

I'm not trying to enforce any rule that might exist in this forum nor do I want them to be enforced. But what exactly are you trying to tell me? If you're not telling me "how you believe (I) should think and act..." then what are you doing?

My reaction was this: childish behavior deserves a childish response.

This is what I learned: people with (cyber)egos don't know how to laugh at themselves.

CS

P.S. atleast someone is showing a little wit around here, in reference to your comment on the purpose of the classroom.
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Buck Turgidson



Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"But bear in mind that, I, like scot47, have a list of people that I would never employ."

Here we have the mentality of an 11 year old. You are either my friend or my enemy. You are either on my good list or my bad list. The world is gray, Rogan. And anybody who would make a judgement (positive or negative) about a person's professional ability and dedication based on posts on an internet discussion forum is a pea brain.

I am still wondering what Commie Smurf could have written that would trigger such a senseless temper tantrum. I am guessing it was deleted?

Everybody grow up.

Buck


[/quote]
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bgor



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 16
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Communist Smurf said:

P.S. atleast someone is showing a little wit around here, in reference to your comment on the purpose of the classroom.

This would make me at least a half-wit, then? Laughing Ah well, I'll take all that I can get.

However, I do disagree with you about any sort of behavior deserving the same type of response. If you think someone is behaving childishly, CS, why lower yourself to their level? You choose your response according to the kind of person you are or want to be. And I think Rogan was just being upfront. He can be gruff, but I have found him to be very helpful. Doesn't suffer fools gladly, and all that. Actually, give you the same amount of time in that Rogan has, and I suspect you guys would actually be quite similar! Shocked

But Big Bad Buck! Whoa, Bucky! So the world is gray? Can there still not be people you would not recommend? And why not based on their posts? Seems to me like writing is a pretty decent way for someone to communicate their personality and character (intentionally or not), especially for an English teacher. Smile

And to all of you: I'll grow up if you will. Nyah. Mr. Green

All the best...Brian
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Kent F. Kruhoeffer



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2129
Location: 中国

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:04 am    Post subject: time to reflect Reply with quote

Good Day Mates:

All of you have made some valid points. This is not quite black and white.

First, I think it's important to look at both sides of the coin when it comes to a job discussion forum like this one.

Old farts (like me and Rogan Razz ) who have survived many years in EFL often get frustrated when our advice is rejected [or we feel attacked] by newbies who usually don't know the score.

Remember ... We don't get paid for giving advice, and by doing so, we are actually, at least indirectly, creating competition for our own jobs. Now and then we can be heard saying to ourselves, "What's the point in trying to help these new people anyway?" What's in it for me?

Well, the answer to this question varies from poster to poster. Personally, I take pride in being helpful; in telling it like it is, not how I'd like it to be; in being fair and objective, in presenting facts rather than just my opinions.

Now ... let's flip the coin for a moment. I'm sure newbies often feel frustrated when they sense they're being patronized by old farts like me. It's normal. No one likes to feel or look stupid, and no one likes starting out 'on the bottom rung of the ladder'. Fair enough. We old-timers need to remember that ... before blasting someone's ego to bits.

If we'd all try a little harder to practice the Golden Rule ... and to be a little more respectful of each other, things would be cool. It's a two-way street.

OK: I'll take the peanut-butter fudge cookie and the job in Siberia that pays $2,000. What more could I ask for? Laughing

Yours truly,
kENt
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maruss



Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 979
Location: Cyprus

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:05 am    Post subject: So there we are............ Reply with quote

After all the tantrums and acrimonious exchanges of recent days,it's good to get back to matters of substance again,and at least discuss things which are useful,or of interest,even though they may be controversial!At the end of the day,for as long as people are available to work for crap salaries and under crap conditions,the schools will go on paying them!-it's the law of supply and demand at work,as in so many areas of life!It seems as if things in Russia are not going to get better in the forseeable future,especially with the current secirity situation and power struggle att he top with elections due next year etc.Living under such stress is bad for anybody,so I guess we shouldn't complain too much about whatt hey think are trifles!
M.
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Communist Smurf



Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him."
"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit."
Proverbs 26:4-5

I choose the latter. I don't believe I was lowering myself to his level in any way. If I had, my response would have read closer to something like, "I will never take advice from someone like you," or, "People like you don't deserve such-and-such." His statement was one of bitterness. Take close note to his use of words:

"But bear in mind that, I, like scot47, have a list of people that I would NEVER employ."

The person that uses the word "never" in this context is bitter about something. Their decision to never employ someone isn't based on a rational judgement call. It's based on offense, anger, and a skewed sense of reciprocity.

My response was one of good-natured mock (it was NOT a response in-kind) to show light upon his foolishness, "...lest he be wise in his own conceit." Idea

I'd like everyone to pause for a moment and realize the severity of my next statement which, upon reflection, one will conclude that the bickering of the past week cannot be applied to my account. For after all, he started it! Surprised

CS

P.S. I'm trying to be mindful of my sarcasm in that I'll make use of these delightfully detailed smilie faces.
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bgor



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 16
Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, the smilies are great. Very Happy Can't get enough of 'em. Exclamation Even to the point of using them inappropriately Cool or for no apparent reason. Embarassed

Anyway, CS, I'm going to stop my side of the debate, though I have learned more about you, and lo, it has been good, verily, wot. Laughing I would add that your it wasn't clear to me that your mock was intended to be good natured. That is a danger of written forums like this, I think. Shocked Yer just a good natured, sarcastic bugger, Twisted Evil and I suspect that you and Rogan will respond similarly to newbies' follies in a few years. Wink

All the best...Brian Confused

PS - I have a contract (non-TESL) in Canada that is too lucrative to pass up. I'll actually get a chance to save up some money so that I can afford to teach in Russia! Razz So, if anyone wants a position in Togliatti for a major firm, $500/month, PM me and I'll give you the details.
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Kent F. Kruhoeffer



Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 2129
Location: 中国

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:09 am    Post subject: reading between the lines Reply with quote

Hello again:

One final thought from me on this topic.

After re-reading Rogan's original post, it dawned on me that some of you [maybe most of you?] might have misread or misunderstood Rogan's true intentions with his statement about not employing 'certain' people.

Rogan's reference to scot47 made it clear to me what he was implying, but ... I know scot47 and have been reading his comments on Dave's for years.

Rogan can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was saying that he frowns on unqualified people in the classroom. i.e., those without a university degree or formal teaching qualifications.

One can disagree with this idea, of course, but that was the point he was making. In my humble opinion, he was not directing that comment at any particular individual [or individuals] on this forum.

Yours truly,
keNt
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khmerhit



Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit

PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2003 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senor Rogan said (and i quote):
Quote:
But bear in mind that, I, like scot47, have a list of people that I would never employ.


I do see your point Mr Kent, but even if your conjecture is accurate and Rogan was referring to the unqualified among us, the tone of his posting is still pretty gruff, categorical and (dare i say it) superior. Life is too short (and the standard pay too paltry) for us to have to put up with such ****.

Rogan was probably in a hurry. But tone matters, whether youre in a hurry or not. Ask some of my students! Very Happy
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Gerhard E. Jene



Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 43
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: newbies Reply with quote

Dear Folks

Please do not group all of is newbies into the same category. There are some of us that do appreciate the advice given from some more experienced traveling ESL teachers.
It does help to know the pitfalls of what to avoid and at the same time your advice does carry some weight. For, in some cases you know of more details than what would be given during the interval of taking a course. When someone takes a course to teach EFL they only give you the basics in most cases.
Since everybody wants to go to different areas of the world, it is hard to go into depth about these areas without taking more time. So in most cases it is nice that there are forums like this that give the newbies a better grasp on what it is like out there in the real world.
Regardless of which place you go through to get qualified, the others that have gone through it before you tend to be (or may be) more biased (to a degree) in certain respects for certain areas of the world. Or there may not be any graduates from that course that may be teaching in the area that you want to go to.
Also, it is sometimes nice to know which might be the better school(s) to teach at over another. For example, I read a posting about avoiding Samaara State University. Whereas, another university was better for those wanting to teach English. That is in part, due to the attitudes that the Russian staff have against those that have an American background.
I will have to dig up those reports and tell you later about who may have posted them. For I have them printed out and in a file at home and am using them and others for reference. So please give us newbies some credit. We do want to listen and know what pitfalls to avoid and what to look for. Because, like I said when you take the course, the instructors have only so much time to teach you to get qualified and may not be able to go into too much depth about the pitfalls and whatever else we would need to know before heading out.
Also, you more experienced folks know if it possible to get away with certain levels of qualifications at these schools that may request more than what a person may have. You know, will the school accept someone fresh out of an ESL course with no degree where the school may have wanted someone with a minimum of a BA. But I guess that depends on the educational level you want to teach. If you want to teach below the college level. I can understand having a minimum of a BA for college and an MA or PHD for university.
I guess that depends on how many applicants the individual school or area gets for those that want to teach. Unless it is an area that is just opening up or is not a very popular destination.

Gerhard E. Jene
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