Job Discussion Forums

[ontoit]

Seems to me that the best way to get involved in the politics of the country where you live is to become a citizen of that country.

Of course it's only natural to have some interest in the politics of your neighborhood whether you are a citizen or not, but after a certain emotional point in the debate has been passed, one falls easy victim to anyone who pulls out the "Love it or leave it" card.

Interest without the desire for citizenship makes the interest seem more hobby-like than a concern for the betterment of a political circumstance.

The exception is anyone married to a national. Such individuals, regardless of nationality, have a right and reason to be involved.

[PlayadelSoul]

[cwc]

Playa, don't pull that crap. Are you a victim? I haven't sent you PMs and won't do so. Lying to the other posters only shows your juvenile idiocy. You are the one that sends vulgar PMs.


STICK TO TOPIC!!!!!


Please don't hijack this thread. Why do you have to degrade every thread you are involved in?



cwc

[Samantha]

Here we go again

[M@tt]

has anyone here seen Celebrity Grudge Match?

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[ontoit]

[TheLongWayHome]

[Guy Courchesne]

Got into this thread late...

Mexico City is starting to feel like a place under seige, though it's peaceful.

AMLO folk ripped into the pavement of Reforma Ave today and hammered up some tents, from the Bolsa to the Diana. I don't think they're going away anytime soon.

[MO39]

Hi Guy,

I know you live very near Reforma, so you are in a position to give us a eye-witness account of what's going on there. Do you really think the demonstrators are in it for the long haul? How long might that haul be? I heard on the news this morning that the mayor of the DF (an AMLO ally, no doubt) has refused to arrest the demonstrators since they've broken no laws. I wonder if AMLO has installed portable toilets for them to use, or are they just going into the nearest Sanborn's to use the "facilities"?

Eagerly awaiting your next report,

MO

[Guy Courchesne]

Howdy MO!

I've been trying to cover the latest happenings, since as you note, it's all outside my window.

Got some video and photos today as protesters have upped the ante by staging a sit-in blockade of the Stock Exchange.

http://www.innovative-english.com/sitin.mpg

http://www.innovative-english.com/sitin2.mpg



More stuff on my blog...

They are in it for the long haul. They literally dug into Reforma ave setting up tents. Had to walk home from a class yesterday morning for Reforma being closed as far out as the Fuente de Petroleos...grr. 1 hour walk.

The Mexico City government isn't sending out much by way of police, probably for being sympathetic. The question is when do the Feds step in? And when they do, what happens next?

There are portable toilets about...I didn't deem them photo-worthy, but I'll take a shot if there's a request.

[MO39]

Thanks for the report, Guy. No need for photos of the toilets, though images of more newsworthy objects and events are welcome!

[Guy Courchesne]

I was teaching a class this morning in a building next to the Bolsa. Security evacuated the building around 9:30 AM and shut the front doors and lights, probably fearful that protesters would start breaking windows. Staff at the company were instructed to leave and take all important files and equipment out the back door with them.

Bit of an overreaction I think, but it speaks of the tension that's coming to a boil.

[delacosta]

I went to both marches over our break, merely to 'observe', acompanying my wife. It was an incredibly moving experince. The atmoshphere was overwhelmingly positive, joyous- I was on the verge of tears the whole time. Of course no main stream mexican media shows what it was like-the broad spectrum of economic classes intermingling, families sipping Starbucks looking like they just stepped out of Liverpools marching beside gritty campesinos. People didn't seem to be angry but hopeful.
Mw wife's extended family, solid middle class conservative, all went, and none of them had ever gone to a protest before.

Here's a letter my wife wrote of the exerience, for those that speak Spanish:

Quiero contarles que durante mis vacaciones fui a las dos Asambleas Informativas de AMLO. El hecho de asistir a estos eventos ha sido una de las experiencias m�s conmovedoras que he tenido como mexicana... Ver el coraz�n de M�xico latiendo, movi�ndose, hablando, confiando, riendo, cantando, vibrando... No es verdad que estaba lleno de "nacos" e "indios", vi gente de todas las clases sociales, de todos los niveles educativos, aunque claro no estaban Slim, ni Azc�rraga, ni Salinas Pliego pero... ellos no son M�xico y finalmente por eso tiemblan porque saben que no son solo los pobres "nacos" los que est�n gener�ndoles semejante dolor de cabeza. Vi gente despertando... Corroborando que la conciencia es un asunto que tiene que ver con alg�n tipo de don porque no est� relacionada con la educaci�n, ni la religi�n, ni la cultura de los medios masivos, es un chip que se activa quien sabe porque y como pero no es necesario leer 12 hrs diarias para abrir la mente y el coraz�n... Y vi cientos de miles de mexicanos en orden, habl�ndose con respeto, cantando, hablando el mismo idioma con pasi�n y calma combinadas... Nadie se atiborr� en el metro ni en las calles aventando o a punto de rabiar... Vi que no solo se trata de AMLO, que aunque es el l�der que el pueblo de M�xico est� siguiendo con cari�o y fervor, se est� tratando m�s bien de M�xico, de una sed de justicia, de libertad, de equidad, de VERDAD, se trata de un movimiento de ciudadanos de todas las condiciones sociales, econ�micas y culturales que quiere congruencia, un M�xico mejor, donde la burla y las manipulaciones tan grotescas dejen de operar, y los m�s favorecidos sean siempre los que tienen dinero y/o poder a manos llenas, y lo solicita de una manera pac�fica aunque haya que generar algunas molestias temporales.... Es mejor que agarrar metralletas y generar violencia... Y esto quiere decir tambi�n algo importante que observ� y vibr�: no es la "borregada" tras AMLO, es individuo por individuo uniendo conciencia...

Ojal� lo entendamos, dijimos: NO ESTAS SOLO, pues vamos a sostenernos! Si el plant�n es en las banquetas o en el bosque de Chapultepec a nadie le va a importar... Sigamos con nuestros ojos abiertos y sobre todo, la reflexi�n que me estoy llevando de todo esto es que M�xico est� despertando, su gente est� empezando a abrirse a la verdad y a actuar con ella... Ojal� que los tiranos no se levanten para aplastar injustamente como en 68, como en el salinato, como durante el maximato... Ojal� que nos sostengamos y aguantemos algunos d�as de caos vial y "mentadas" de personas que no entienden que pasa, y comprendamos que lo que est� en juego es much�simo, incluso hasta la dignidad de quienes no entienden y que vale la pena soportar incomodidades.

Lamento hondamente no estar en el DF para darme mis vueltas por los campamentos pero con lo que pueda he estado cooperando. Les comparto que se necesitan v�veres, los centros de acopio est�n en el z�calo, a un costado de catedral y en la explanada entrando por 20 de noviembre...

Por cierto, si quieren apoyar tambi�n pasen la voz de no comprar Coca-Cola, Jumex/La Coste�a, Sabritas, Bimbo (hay informes de que en esta empresa los empleados llenaron sus boletas frente a sus jefes para que votaran por el PAN)... Y bajar el rating de los programas pico de Televisa y TVAzteca.. Si les pegamos en la $$$ van a poner atenci�n pues en verdad es lo �nico que les interesa, por eso est�n como tiburones sobre M�xico...

Bueno, les mando todo mi cari�o, hice copia de esto a tres personitas que no votaron por AMLO pero que amo y respeto mucho y quiero compartirles no mis ideas si no mi experiencia integral...

Besos y todo mi amor eterno,

Lau


What follows is a lengthy article frm el sendero del peje website, if anyone is interested in some other views than the stale pablum being offered up by most media:
A Hint of Revolution in Mexico?: L�pez Obrador shows Progressives of the World the Way Forward

By Jonathan David PhillyIMC | 08.02.2006

The July 2nd election and the events that have followed it have been arguably the most important news of the year 2006 outside the Middle East. Progressives around the world need to be paying attention. The political struggle unfolding in Mexico right now is showing the global movement for social justice how to move forward.

While the progressive candidate, Andr�s Manuel L�pez Obrador (supporters call him by his initials, AMLO) of the Party of the Democratic Revolution [PRD] officially lost the preliminary tally for president of Mexico to the conservative candidate Filipe Calder�n of current President Vincente Fox�s party National Action Party [PAN], AMLO has shown that he will not simply roll over and accept the probable electoral fraud, as Al Gore and John Kerry did in the most recent presidential elections in the US.

Instead, after the election, to press his case, L�pez Obrador has called on followers to come to protests in Mexico City to show the country and the TRIFE (Mexico�s special electoral tribunal that has the final authority to declare the results of an election) that a major segment of the Mexican population does not believe the validity of the election results.

The most recent mass demonstration took place on Sunday, when over a million supporters gathered in the streets of Mexico City. At AMLO�s bidding, they have vowed to stay in the city and engage in civil disobedience until the TRIFE orders a recount of every ballot box. (Murry, Kieran and Cyntia Barrera, �Mexico leftists occupy capital in election protest,� July 30, 2006 Reuters News Wire) An on-going protest in the streets of the capital city of Mexico could be seen as just as significant as the protests in Tian�anmen Square in Beijing in 1989. Perhaps, for progressives of the world, it is more significant.

Background:

For more than 70 years of the 20th century Mexico was ruled by a single party, the Institutional Revolutionary Party [PRI]. In election after election, the PRI manipulated elections so that they would win. In the late 20th century, the political landscape of Mexico began to change: a multi-party political system began to take shape. Vincente Fox became Mexico�s first president outside of the PRI in over 70 years.

Recent laws have instituted what on paper appears to be a well-regulated, fair electoral system, designed to avoid the problems of the past. An independent electoral commission called IFE for short, has been instituted to hold the elections and to ensure that there are carried out fairly. All ballots are caste on paper. Overseers of voting places are voters drafted into service like in the American jury system. Once the votes have been counted locally and submitted to the IFE, the IFE submits the results to a judicial electoral tribunal, known as the TRIFE tribunal, certifies that the elections are valid. The tribunal then declares who is the winner.

While the international press has already declared Calder�n to be the winner, the tribunal has not yet offered its judgment of whether the results of the election are fair and accurate.

Evidence of possible electoral fraud:

The present author has not been a journalist on the ground in Mexico, is not a specialist on Mexican politics, and does not possess any special knowledge concerning the true events of the July 2nd election. Yet many events reported by credible sources during the election make it clear that the results of the election are deeply suspect. It is best to avoid conspiracy theories, or claims to absolute knowledge of fact. Yet the following charges are things that we can claim to know:

1) Mexican television news reporters hacked into the computers of the IFE and found that the IFE and PAN had been sharing data on registered voters before the election, in clear violation of the nation�s election laws.

2) Most exit polls showed AMLO ahead throughout the day of the election. In the preliminary vote count on the evening of the election, July 2, Calder�n never trailed. (Ian Welsh, http://agonist.org/ian_welsh/20060716/election_theft_in_mexico July 16, 2006)

3) The IFE preliminary results of the election showed Calder�n ahead from the beginning. At first the margin of lead was by 7 %. As the night wore on, Calder�n�s per cent lead declined to under 1 % but the actual number of votes that he remained ahead remained constant. Political scientists and statisticians have claimed that this irregularity is not really possible. Some have suggested that a silent algorithm may have been added to the computerized tallies. Others have suggested that the tally may have begun with Calderon having a pre-existing bank James James K. Galbraith, �Doing Maths In Mexico: While Mexicans take to the streets over the presidential vote, democracy's fairweather friends are standing silent.� www.commondreams.org

4) There was a significant drop off of votes for L�pez Obrador as the actual ballot counting raced toward the finish line. �Vote drop offs� mean that while a ballot was caste and tallies were recorded for local officials and for legislators, no choice for presdent had been made. Thus, there were many more ballots caste than there were votes for president. Election specialists maintain that this kind of drop off never happens: voters are motivated to vote by the person at the top of the ticket, not by those at the bottom. (Ian Welsh, http://agonist.org/ian_welsh/20060716/election_theft_in_mexico July 16, 2006)

5) All reports of ballot boxes that have been opened and recounted show that the recounts differ significantly from the official tally sheets (called acta-s) recorded on election day. The difference has been that L�pez Obrador received more votes than officially noted and Calder�n received fewer than recorded. Even New York Times, through its reporters Ginger Thompson and James C. McKinley Jr has noted this trend. (Ian Welsh, http://agonist.org/ian_welsh/20060716/election_theft_in_mexico July 16, 2006)

6) Current President Vincente Fox of the PAN consulted on the telephone with the head of the electoral commission (IFE) on the night of the elections, in apparent violation of Mexico�s electoral laws (http://www.narconews.com/Issue42/article1961.html

7) L�pez Obrador has turned over a 900 page document to the TRIFE of evidence of fraudulent practices close to half of Mexico�s 133,000 polling places. Aside from the evidence of massive vote drop off, ballots have been found in the trash on the side of roads videos made of workers stuffing ballet boxes and changing tallies sheets, recordings were made of telephone conversations between PRI and PAN workers to challenge PRD in some voting places, and the intervention of current President Vincente Fox. (Radio interview with Matt Pascarella podcast on KPFT http://www.gregpalast.com/podcast-kpft-interviews-matt-pascarella-on-mexican-election)

In a potential conflict of interest, one of Calder�n�s brother-in-laws co-founded a computer company named Hildebrando hired to do voter registration databases for the country showing manipulation of electoral system. (Pascarella)

9) Independent journalist Greg Pallast reports IFE hired the same computer company in the US that Jeb Bush used to remove 90,000 voters from Florida�s voter registration lists, in the name of removing felons. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1815750,00.html

10) While was not widespread, systematic, conspiratorial fraud, Josh Holland of Alternet writes, the clean election mechanisms that are new in Mexico were trumped by the old habits. The PRD is an outsider party. (Joshua Holland, �Mexico: Calderon Hasn�t Won� July 10th, 2006. www.alternet.com) Perhaps the PRD�s status as an outsider party allowed insiders to manipulate tallies in individual polling places.

The evidence provided above is not conclusive. Yet it is known that the PRD presidential candidate was denied a fraudulent election victory in 1988. It is known that Lopez Obrador was denied the post of governor of the state of Tobasco in a fraudulent election. We also know that earlier this year, Vincente Fox tried without success to keep AMLO off the presidential ballot completely.

Furthermore, we know that millions of voters did not vote out of disillusionment with the process. Others did not vote because the policies of NAFTA have led them into a life of undocumented work in the United States.

And further still, we know that, though Mexico�s new electoral system is advanced and fair, there are significant problems with the actual election. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. This election, my friends, is probably a duck.

Significance of Mexico�s election for progressives:

The import of the Mexican election is still unfolding. Right now, AMLO is focusing on getting the TRIFE to undertake a recount that counts every vote. If he succeeds in getting the TRIFE to do so, progressives around the world will have a model of how to act in situations of electoral fraud.

Conventional wisdom in Mexico, however, is that the TRIFE will certify Calderon as the winner of a �fair election.� If this is the case, progressives can draw a different conclusion. That is, that vote tallies do not matter in a world of what human rights activist Arundhati Roy calls �imperial democracy.� What matters is control of the electoral apparatus, and control of the narrative of the election maintained by the official institutions of the government and their allies in the corporate press.

The present writer�s hunch is that if the TRIFE endorses Calder�n, AMLO still won't give up, leading a campaign of mass civil disobedience. The lesson in this scenerio is that in a world of imperial democracy, which is in fact no democracy at all, it will take a democratic revolution to install democracy even in countries that appear to have the infrastructure of democracy.

The social movement that is currently behind the PRD and AMLO, it seems to me reading from afar, built of hundreds of loosely federated progressive organizations with deep roots among Mexican workers and peasants and intellectuals is exactly the kind of social movement progressives are trying to build, built as it is on social networks among hundreds of grassroots organizations.

If the PRD and L�pez Obrador loose their appeal to the TRIFE, the movement will cease being an electoral movement, but will be one that challenges the rulers outside of the electoral process. Such a movement could, if wildly successful, stake a claim to being the legitimate government of the nation. While such a scenario is unlikely, Mr. L�pez Obrador has been, so far, leading the way with surprisingly surefooted direct action. Let us wish him and his followers well.

http://www.phillyimc.org/or/2006/08/27235.shtml


Saludos,

Y a seguirle,

[MELEE]

While I know that the Mexican system is not set up this way, I wonder why there is no talk what so ever about the possiblity of a run off election? Not even hypothetically.

Fraud issues aside, neither candidate got more than 40% of the vote, in many countries that would call for a run off between the top two.