Job Discussion Forums

sheeba · Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1123

Kid - What's going on with your spelling of 'there'

Are you a native speaker?

Why would I want to pay you so much if you can't even spell simple English?

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

sheeba · Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1123

Hey CJ! I can see what you are saying to some extent about teaching back home. I'm (in the process) of bettering my qualifications and have a more optimistic outlook regarding work in the UK. I know it won't be easy but I'm not expecting to head back to London for 5 years plus from now - hopefully with an MA TESOL and some good varied experience. I think the overseas experience is crucial for teaching back home - especially the languages you pick up whilst abroad .

DistantRelative · Joined: 19 Oct 2004 Posts: 367 Location: Shaanxi/Xian

KidfromBrooklyn wrote:

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

I haven't read all that's been said here, but KFB raises some good points in his opening blasts. The Chinese have not been raised in a cultural environment heavily influenced by Christian values such as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Like it or not, Judaeo Christian values of fairness, honesty, service, permeate the Western business climate. Certainly there are exceptions, but the cutthroat, gouging practices that are common here are the exception in the West.

The Chinese take pleasure from hurting people in business, from ripping them off. And if they can't, when foreigners are involved, they will not do business with you rather than give you a fair price. They are extremely racist in this respect.

Of course not all Chinese are like this. But people with the ability to treat you unfairly often will, particularly if larger amounts are involved. The fruit seller that tells you her fruit is only 1RMB/jin rather than the 1.3 you suggested is certainly a pleasure to meet, but saving 3 jiao is irrelevant.

It's the business that wants 16,000 rather than the 2,000 that locals pay are the ones you have to watch for. And you might be surprised where you'll find it. With these kind of numbers, (and these are actual figures) it is easy to see why foreigners must be paid more than local people.

Money is not the only thing that you can loose here. Time is another thing, more valuable than money, since it can't be replaced. People here think nothing of wasting your time, from a few minutes to a few weeks, if they can. It is a combination of indifference and lack of awareness about Western values that contributes greatly to this. And more sinister, the person who gets some evil pleasure by making you wait just because he can, is someone you should be aware of.

The principal of a school that employed me saw the FAO waiting for me in an office and when the principal discovered that the FAO was waiting for me, he instructed the FAO to leave the office and return after I arrived. His point? Make the foreigner wait. The guy was 10 or fifteen minutes early for an appointment. I was on time. So they thought nothing of wasting my time, simply to make the point that I lacked the status to keep them waiting.

Another guy falsely got me involved in an exhibition, postponing my travel to the States. Turns out that the event was a hoax and never happened, delaying my return to the U.S. for nearly two weeks. It's difficult to quantify losses like this, but those two weeks lost were costly if not in money, then in time.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

NathanRahl · Joined: 31 Aug 2006 Posts: 509

CJ I disagree with you in reference to you comparing chinese business people to America. The chinese do business, if not differently, then the are farmore extreme in their seeming need to rip you off.

Alive and well in the US, again with the USA, you do seem to dislike america, for they are always your counter view point in the negative whenever you disagree with something someone has to say about china in the negaitve. Haven't heard you once use the USA as a counter arguement in the positive. Biased are you, umm, yeah, very likely you are, kind of obvious.

As for americans being cut throat business people. Sure, but were talking about downright lying right to your face, cheating, stealing, and yes this happens, but these are more exceptions in america then the rule. Why, because there are a lot more laws protecting the consumer, as well as fellow business men, or women.

It's a study in extremes, and I think what some are trying to say is, the chinese are much more extreme in their dishonesty when it comes to business. To them it may not be dishonest, or a big deal, but to me it sure as heck is.

Oh, and I have lived in America all my life, and done business there, but it took coming to china to get me lied to, cheated, and taken advantage of. In just a few months I have dealt with more deciet, doing less business, then I ever did in america, doing more, and for many years no less.

Sorry CJ, but if your point is to say that American business is just as dishonest, corrupt, and wholly without principle to the extent that china business is, then your 100% wrong. Good bye.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

NathanRahl · Joined: 31 Aug 2006 Posts: 509

Mayhaps it is and mayhaps it is not, though I think your thinking is a little too polarized, and that your looking at things from too much of an extremist point of view.

Pro american, maybe you were a few months ago. You seem to teeter back and forth between extremes, but find no solid middle ground, doesn't surprise me at all.

What does seem to remain a constant is your seeming ability to muddy the waters of any discussion, confuse the issue, and basically seem to make a point, while actually making no point whatsoever. You do succeed very well in disagreeing oftentimes, but beyond that, you really don't say much to prove any point at all. Muddy waters all the way it seems.

Later all.

DistantRelative · Joined: 19 Oct 2004 Posts: 367 Location: Shaanxi/Xian

Why do you bother with the guy cj? He's been here a couple months and dispenses advice and commentary as if he's an old China hand.
Outside of the usual tourist traps my experience thus far has been quite the opposite. In many cases I find myself paying less than the locals do. My scooter is a prime example. I paid 2850 for the same product the locals have to pay 3250 for. I think my service is better than locals receive too. I had a problem with it a couple weeks ago and they actually came to my apartment and fixed it and didn't charge me a Jiao for parts or labor. Many of the shopkeepers in my neighborhood discount their goods and services to me. My baker always throws in extra for the same price, and the little restaurant across the street brings my takeout to me in dishes rather than the styrofoam tubs and plastic bags most others get (kind of a pain really because then I have to wash the d*amn things before I send em back ). My barber touches up the grey in my moustache whenever I go in for a haircut and doesn't charge me for it. Hell my local watering hole often sets me up with a fruit plate whether I want it or not. I could cite so many other acts of kindness I've received while here.
Do I know their are dishonest business people in China? Sure I do, just as sure as I know their absolutely are crooked and dishonest business peeps in any country including the good ole USA.
My advice to you Nathan: If your so dissatisfied with life and work in China (In reading the bulk of your posts that certainly seems to be the case) why don't you pack your friggin bags and get the hell out (and don't let the door hit you in the a*s)?

China's not for everyone!!

Zhu hao,

Shawn

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

NathanRahl · Joined: 31 Aug 2006 Posts: 509

I knew someone would read that meaning into things, have a different point of view, or one I don't like go the heck home, yadda yadda yadda, so much for civilized commentary, though I will remain civilized.

Yes Vikdk, there is a sucker born every minute, that is for sure.

And I'd honestly have to say that simply because someone gives someone a discount, a rate, a freebie, because they are a forienger, or like you, this has little to do with the business practices of a country as a whole. As for the emotional outburst and insults, thats just par for course here.

Lets remain objective and keep the subjective arguements, and the personal attacks where they belong, which is off of the forum, ok.

Thanks for the input all, and take care Smile

TravellingAround · Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Posts: 423

Teaching in a low-paid job in China is definitely worth it depending on your goals. At least for a while.

For two years I worked at a uni for less than 5,000RMB - why? Well...put it this way. Apart from the usual apatment, visa etc...I had a working week that began on Monday morning and ended before Tuesday lunchtime. There is something to be said for having a 5-day weekend. It was easy enough on occasions to do other work and get over 10,000 if need be but I just enjoyed the excellent lifestyle.

After a while though I decided to move for the sake of ambition and a hint of career progression. If anyone wants a nice, chilled-out (at least hours-wise) I'd recommend a uni job in China. Look at it as funding your travels for a few years.

Some people don't want to leave that kind of existence but for me...no, long-term it wasn't worth it.